Jesus Christ (What Christians, Jews, and Muslims Say About Him)

Quote from Barth Vader:

"educated person"......Now that is a debate waiting to happen.
Who will judge the matter ?
You ? Me ? Pelosi ? Mickey Mouse ?

An example:

Let me name three people I believe all who are familiar with, would agree were "educated"

Hegel
Kant
Schleiermacher

"...Hegel saw Kant as philosophically wrong because he was not rational enough, by contrast, Schleiermacher saw Kant as wrong because he was too rational, thereby neglecting the felt aspect of humanity...."
[ From "The Barth Lectures, Colin E. Gunton]

I keep reading the phrase "primitive man" in your remarks, please enlighten me with some examples of "modern [?] man" or an "educated" man.

Thank You
More...
why would you quote men dead for hundreds of years as biblical authority? the scientific knowledge that falsified the bible is only less than a century old. of course these men can be excused for believing primitive tales. what is the excuse of someone educated in this generation?
the primitive men who wrote the bible tales believed that thunder and ligtning were a god communicating with them. they had no concept of science and why things happened to them. we now there are natural causes for those things.
people like you still have a need to believe so you have to retreat to a gap in our knowledge to place your god but the more man accumulates knowledge the less and less need there is for "god did it" explainations.
 
Quote from Barth Vader:

Hello I Am,

I have read some of your remarks / posts, and I will say you have a very unique view of biblical subject matter !

Quite frankly, I am at a loss of how to respond to your question.

Please forgive me if I am way off base, but it is hard to ascertain where your positions originate as they do not seem to fit any biblical systematic scenarios that I am aware of. Are you saying that you have some special enlightenment ?

Creation is the bedrock of G-D's activity. If you are saying that the created reality we are present in is an illusion, then I have no basis to render an answer to your question.

Respectfully
More...

I'm giving you Jesus' Christ. That is, I'm giving you Jesus' perspective on Reality relative to what he called "this world". There is a difference between "this world" and "the Kingdom of GoD". Is that not apparent, even in the popular gospels that pass for the gospel truth?

I'm giving you Jesus' perspective...the "mind of Christ". Simply, Jesus looked at the world in a way that made it "pass away" from his experience. And when all look at the world the way Jesus looked at it, the world will "pass away" entirely...simply vanish, back to where illusions come from, to nothing.

Meanwhile, there is a deep, ancient desire in the heart of man to make and maintain "the world" as "reality". This will never change the fact that Christ is Reality...that Christ is the Kingdom of God...that Christ is the Son of God...that Christ is the true Creation, the one and only of *Our Father*.

"The world"...what the hell is that?

To Jesus, "the world" was a thought in the mind of Christ. As the thought takes its course, it seems to transform Christ into "man, beast, and every creeping thing". This is an "illusion" [think: shapeshifting, shamanism, voodoo, magic]. Responding to this, Jesus looked at the world as a mask [veil] over the face of Christ. And by overlooking the mask [forgiveness] Jesus learned to see Christ instead in everyone. And identifying with Christ, Jesus loved each one he met as himSelf: Christ, the Son of God. In this way, he founded his frame of mind on an unchanging "rock" of truth.

Jesus is correlated to the "second Adam" because of the correlation to sleeping and awakening. In genesis, Adam sleeps. It does not say he woke up. Hebrew genesis is written from the point of view of a sleeping mind. The sleeping mind dreams, imagines, fantasizes, opinionates, judges, and determines what is true without regard to actual truth or knowledge. Jesus is considered the first among dreamers to awaken from the sleep of Adam. And awake, Jesus considered it normal to be equal to GoD.

Adam is therefore not a symbol of the first man, but rather, the mind that sleeps and dreams of..."the world". Jesus is a symbol of the same mind [Adam] awakening [symbol: resurrection] from a deep sleep [symbol: death], by identifying himself with the mind of Christ [symbol: Life]. It is only as each identifies with Christ that he overcomes the sleep of Adam. in this regard, Jesus showed "the way". So, as "all sleep in Adam, all rise in Christ". The mistake sleepers make is to see Jesus as different and special. Rather, Jesus was the first true Christian, given as an example to "follow".

The sleep of Adam is initiated in the mind of Christ, if at all, relative to ideas antithetical to Christ. Christ is awake and aware. Adam is asleep and unaware. This describes the condition of everyone who thinks themselves participants in the world.

All participants in "the world" are one participant: Adam...asleep. Jesus is the "first fruits" of Adam awakening. And as he woke, so too will "we" awaken...given enough time. There is plenty of time. Time is for awakening. Before, time was for sleeping. Now it is for awakening.

All participants in the world can trace their ideological lineage back to Adam, the mind that sleeps. It is full of misperceptions about GoD and his Son, false beliefs about Christ, and guilty feelings about its intent to sleep and dream about separation, betrayal, murder, pain and suffering. As such, it is in near total denial. It is hiding. "The world" functions as the proverbial "fig leaf". It is a place to hide. So, it is a "mask" ["veil"] for masqueraders. Time is "Halloween" all year round. "The world" is "Mardi Gras" from beginning to end...a carnival ride of falsity...an emotional rollercoaster.

The Hebrew tradition of genesis arises from man's subconscious mind, which is Adam asleep. Adam asleep is confused about his genesis, and about who is responsible for what. Adam thinks GoD kicked him out of paradise for some infraction, and feels guilty and passes blame [blame game]. But Adam knows nothing, having eaten [digestion of thought] the idea that there may be something more than the Kingdom of God [metaphor: Garden of Eden] that could satisfy him. But what is more than everything is nothing, and what is more than life is death.

Likewise, what is more than truth is illusion. So "the world" is simply the denial of knowledge in order to have an experience of ignorance. The experience of ignorance is an experience of suffering, as the experience of knowledge is the experience of bliss.

As Jesus began to awaken to the knowledge ["Truth"] that was "before the foundation of the world" , he told rather a different story of "genesis". People [the sleeping ones] don't realize that the parable of "the prodigal Son" is a story of genesis and exodus. Sleepers also do not realize that the crucifixion and resurrection ascension sequence was a parody of genesis and exodus.

As such, "the world" does not begin with a benign motive, but rather, begins with an attack on "the truth". That is, it began as an attack on the Son of God by a thought within his own mind...resulting in a "house divided against itself". "The world", therefore, is the *fallout* of a mental conflict on a grandios scale. As such, it is not about the "fall of man". Man is the effect of a falling out of reality [Christ, Kingdom of God], and so is part of an expression of unreality [illusion]. The expression of walking away from reality is the expression of insanity [sin]. So, the whole world is a "sin"...insane from its very foundation.

Jesus explained the falling away as a son walking away from his inheritance...away from his Father's kingdom. The son is said to have wandered away to a far off land where he experienced aggravation and suffering and poverty. This is parable to world genesis. Hebrew lore is imparable...misleading. Hebrew lore would keep the son wandering forever in a far off land. Jesus parable would return the son to his home, gathered together as one from dispersion to the four winds.

The wandering, dispersing, suffering son is the crucified Son of God. The returning, unifying, joyful son is the rising Son of God [symbol: resurrection]. The rising Son of God is the awakening Adam. We are all in Adam, so we are all awakening each at our own pace, over time. Awake, we know ourselves as Jesus knew himself: Christ. Christ is the totality of everything real.

Everything real is the Kingdom of God. "The world" is the idea that within the Kingdom of God, there can be another kingdom...different...more...which combines attributes of the Kingdom with opposite attributes. Truth is, there is nothing opposed to the Kingdom of God, so there is no "world". "The world" is therefore an imposter, an illusion, a delusion, a trick...a mind game.

Christ is not different from *Our Father*. The relationship is Creation and Creator. This is the true "creation". The world is not a creation...and certainly not a creation of *Our Father*. It is a mind game. The mind game is mostly a blame game. Blame is placed on Self and the world arises to prove it.

As such, the world is a "false witness" which accuses the Son of God of you-name-it. In this way, the Son of God is framed. Adam provides the "frame" or framework, with which the Son of God can be proven guilty. Consequently, there is no one in the world who has not pointed the finger, or had three fingers pointed back at him. And if anyone can be proved to be guilty, then the Son of God can be proven guilty.

But the truth remains the same: Guilt is a lie, and what accuses anyone of anything is a liar. As such, the world is a liar because it serves to accuse and convict under rules, codes, procedures and laws that prevent anyone from appearing innocent. As the truth stands, it takes away the sins of the world. As it falls, sin arises to stand in its place as an imposter, calling itself 'the truth'.

For these reasons, it is said that the truth was "slain before the foundation of the world". This means that the world is built on a lie...what Jesus called "sand"...a false foundation. And what is built on sand cannot stand for long, and will fall. As such, the world will "pass away".

This is the perspective Jesus held in mind as he looked at the world. And looking this way, he found the way to "overcome" what seemed insurmountable. He overcame by holding the truth in his mind next to the lie. And like light to dark, the lie vanished, and he was set free.

Christ!

P.S. - Why can't you people keep "the universe" in your homes and churches?:D
 
Quote from stu:

The world is what would be expected from known circumstances. God is no more than an intuition for the unknown.
More...

Glad that you are now responding with more composure. I disagree with your conclusion as it is just a belief. It is also true that what I wrote so far about God is also just a belief, but I have my reasons for my belief. I want people to understand that God cannot be a human, or reveal himself as a human. Therefore Jesus is NOT God.

Let me ask you a question to challenge your too much believe in human constructs. If you ride a car and make a sharp turn, there will be a centrifugal force that pushes your body out. Now, we now that earth rotates. Thererefore, it should eject people out of it. But what earth does is actual completely the opposite: It attarcts people towards it.

I challenge you, and anyone out, there to explain the source of this gravity. Bring all nobel prize winner together to explain gravity. I do not want a model that represent this force, I want the causality itself. How is the pulling actually done, and by what/who? I do not know how educated you are, but do not provide as answesr a model by a physicist. A model is just an abstract representation. It does not capture the causalities for the case of gravity for instance.

I have other challenges for you, and others.

There are also religious texts that made predictions in the workings of nature, and were revealed to be true only in out time, and could have not been known before us.

Therefore whoever wrote those texts have only gotten that information from a divine or someone way more intelligent and knowledgeable than humans.
 
Quote from riskfreetrading:


[...]

Let me ask you a question to challenge your too much believe in human constructs.

[...]

I challenge you, and anyone out, there to explain the source of this gravity. Bring all nobel prize winner together to explain gravity. I do not want a model that represent this force, I want the causality itself. How is the pulling actually done, and by what/who? I do not know how educated you are, but do not provide as answesr a model by a physicist. A model is just an abstract representation. It does not capture the causalities for the case of gravity for instance.

I have other challenges for you, and others.
[]...
More...
You talk about no human constructs or abstract representations. Yet gravity is hardly a human construct whilst God certainly is an abstract representation.
But you have such challenges that need such proof.. Proof of causality no less .

Have you ever asked yourself how come you require such high levels of proof of causality for gravity , something which is obviously present and real and can be shown so easily to exist, but you require no such proof of causality for God, which is not at all obvious and cannot be demonstrated at all ?
 
Quote from stu:

You talk about no human constructs or abstract representations. Yet gravity is hardly a human construct whilst God certainly is an abstract representation.
But you have such challenges that need such proof.. Proof of causality no less .

Have you ever asked yourself how come you require such high levels of proof of causality for gravity , something which is obviously present and real and can be shown so easily to exist, but you require no such proof of causality for God, which is not at all obvious and cannot be demonstrated at all ?
More...

I am not talking about the word "gravity" but talking about the force that pulls you to the ground. The same for the word "God". It is not the word that we believe, but what that word represent. Words are just labels. I am talking about what they represent.

So let go back to gravity again.

You did not prove the causality for gravity, and I do not believe anyone will be able to. Bring all nobel prize winners, and all scientists of all times, and they will be unable to explain it.

Yet gravity exists. So, who created it? I hope you do not believe that gravity came out of chance. If this were the case why not use chance to create gravity for another man-made object? Humans can theoretize things, and for the weak/unsophisticated minds, this may appear as if they figured things out. Who ever created (just gravity) is majestic in his work. I am not done. I have other challenge for you, such magnetism. Maxwell wrote beautiful equations, but what the causality for earth magnetic fields? Who created them? What are the causalities involved?

It is the hand behind things such as gravity and many other things in what we know (and what we do not know ) that makes me (and should make you and others) consider the belief in the existence of God. It is the intelligent thing to do. Believe in the non-existence of God is the dumb thing to do.
 
I want to add that in universties, they skip the nature of questions I ask (for instance about gravity). They put them under the rug. If they ever pose those questions, half the class will move to study theology, because they will understand that while what they do in physics is certainly useful, they will want to know who provide the fundamental forces, energies, etc.
 
Quote from TraderZones:

Quote from Fishbird:

Jesus was just some weirdo of that time.

As opposed to you, who is normal? How many people follow your life example was it again? Was it more or less than Jesus?

Jesus is just a random tool. Could have been any other cult guy. There were thousands crucified at that time or talking crazy stuff all day. And that crap about easter how he got after three days and so on.
I ask you this. Are you following your religion because you really belive in it or because your parents already had that religion and you followed them? Why dont you change to moslem or buddhism? They are also pretty fanatic which means there must be something true about it. Religions are massmanipulation of those who cant live without a higher power. Dont follow anyone and surely not me. Be your own god.
>
There is no god and why would he send a human to tell us how to behave?

Then I am sure you will supply definitive proof that God does not exist, and how God is supposed to follow your ideas rather than what he might think?

We all started as single celled creatures and evolved from that to the various lifeforms. Someday the sun will stop shining and earth will freeze over but more probably we will get hit by an asteroid. Maybe a god created universe and atoms but the rest he has nothing to do with.
>
Does he send a horse for horses and a fish for fishes?

Apparently, you think he sent you, who has no clue where he came from, where he is going, why he is here, what his purpose is, or even

Purpose? Jesus and god, alah and their various prophets etc. are a myth. You follow man made cults. Religions have killed billions and will destroy this planet for sure.
>
We can do what we want. Sin or be friendly, eat others or eat plants.

Then if someone shoots you in the leg, that is OK with you?

There is no right or wrong. Animals dont think in right or wrong. I will react and shoot him but that is just a feeling of revenge created by evolution. Revenge is better than doing nothing and maybe die. Animals dont feel revenge. Btw all the stuff that jesus is telling us is anti-evolutionary. Its kind of socialism were weak should be helped and fighting is bad. If we follow this 10000 years we will be surpassed by another animal that takes the lead and eats us. Helping might be good or bad in the long run but being pacifist like jesus wants us to be will result in us vanishing from earth. Every lifeform fights and the most brute and heartless have highest odds of reproduction.
>
There are absolutely no rules other than what the current power tells you to do.

Funny, why don't you hold up a bank, and explain that to the judge?

Because law will react on my doings and hurt me which i dont like.
>
Its survival of the fittest. You are dead, you get born, live, die and are dead again. Death is not bad, its nessessary to sort out the weak and let the strong carry on and reproduce. There is no sense in it though. Completely senseless and we reproduce only because of our instincts, morale and believes which are all products of evolution. Those who fell the urge for suicide when there is no reason to live or reproduce cant reproduce because they killed themselfes. We are a product who carry on living even though it is senseless.

Unfortunately, survival of the fittest didn't weed you out yet.

Neither you and your gods and religions. Really religions were first found in the stone age. It has to do with the size of our brains. It needs a sense for some reason. People who believe in something are more efficient than if everything is completely senseless for them. I dont reproduce myself for example because its just senseless and mostly a way of escaping. Neither my brother. We will get sorted out by evolution. You like that i guess :)


God is santa claus for adults. Nothing else.

You are a nightmare for logic

Why is one land believing in one religion and another one is believing a different one? Why is it so geographically specific and not properly mixed up?
Or why dont we believe the same religion with exactly same rules? Answer: Because its delivered by parents and not based on free believe. That to me means religions are just mass confusion. Why are you not moslem?
>
God started to exist when our brain evolved over a specific size.

When does your brain arrive?

Reading what you say makes someone realize that it was definitely a waste of time

Just read it again. You might get it after reading it a couple times.
 
Quote from riskfreetrading:



I have always had this question to anyone who believes in Trinity: "Where it is that Jesus claimed that he was a God, or Son of God"?

[/B]
More...

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, these bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one


http://www.crossroads.ca/unique/un021002.htm
 
But his use of "My Father" is applicable to every human. It is not exclusive to Jesus, and is applicable to Jesus because it is applicable to all humans including Jesus. Therefore, Jesus did not imply by Father the meaning that some people (today christians) have of it today.

To be precise, Jesus used the word "Abba", which in Aramaic, as in nowdays Arabic and Hebru mean Father, but not in the biological/family sense only. For instance in Arabic and Hebru, it is a form of respect to call someone Father.

Even in English, we say: Mr. is the Father of a given field. What that means is that he is the creator of that field, authority of a field. It does not imply a biological relation.

So Jesus is not a diety, and never meant it.

You are committing a big offence towards God to think that Jesus was Son of God in the sense you understand it.

When Jesus will come back, he will slap you on the face for thinking and spreading words that he was the biological Son of God, and worse one of the three personification of God.

Jews think of Jesus as a bastard who turned Rabbi, and Muslim as a Prophet of God coming from a miraculous birth but human nonetheless.

Muslim and Jews go crazy when they hear your description and attributions of meanings to Jesus vs. God. Not because the disrespect you, but because they care for God, who is the same God that you have a misperception of (according to them of course).

But the "Son of God" and trinity is clear to me to be just a church invention, and is the reason why christianity as respresented but current churches is doomed to fail.
 
I am actually doing other work now.

But you are most likely very wrong.

1. In the very beginning of the bible God uses WE.

2. Hear oh Isreal the Lord our God is one.

The Hebrew word for one is echad.... it means compound unity.

3. I do not have time to go through it now but many predictions about Jesus were made in the old testament.

My favorites is the one about the time he was to enter into Jerusalem on the donkey. Jesus was aware he was fulfilling prophesy about the messiah.

Jesus said if the people were not hear to great me - these rocks would have to cry out. - because he was fulfilling prophesy.

You should check that one out. I will post it hear when I have time.

Jesus speaks of partaking in his body and therefore having eternal life. He uses words which translate as gnawing on his flesh.

He was the perfect sacrificial lamb. He was foreshadowed by the passover when they had to eat the lamb and put the sign of the cross in their doorway - and when abraham was to sacrifice his son -- and then told his son that God will provide a the sacrifice.

God did provide his son in place of Abrahams son.

I could go on and on. After you read all this in context - you have no doubt jesus is the son of God who was with him in heaven before the foundations of the universe.

The Word became flesh...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 1
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top