Jesse Livermore

steve46 · Jun 15, 2006

Pabst:

I have seen a few great talents in my life. Most were involved in sports. What concerned me was one thing that all of them had in common. They all acted as though they were entitled to some special leeway in life, that "the rules" didn't apply to them. As a result the arc of their lives took on a lot of volatility, big ups and downs, lots of anguish and waste. Its obvious that I was never a great natural talent like those folks, so maybe I am just jealous, but I have to think that its a shame that they coudn't tone it down just a notch. If I wanted to have a role model, even though they were successful, I wouldn't choose these guys. Not Bonds, Not Livermore, Not Jose Canseco, I could name a bunch of them, all great natural talents, but just not my style.

On the other hand, there are a lot of guys who worked hard and in my opinion deserve a lot of aplause. How about Barry Sanders of the Detroit Lions, Billy Casper or Jack Nicklaus. I happen to know Bill Casper and I think he is a great guy and a wonderful role model for young folks (for anyone really). I think there must be a few of those guys in the business world as well all though I can't think of them off the top of my head.

Steve

Thunderdog · Jun 16, 2006

Quote from Rearden Metal:

People suffering from clinical depression are far more likely to engage in risky behavior than those with solid mental health.

While this is pretty self-evident IMO, the fact has also been proven via the scientific method... so it's all a package deal.

I have a question for those who are knowledgeable about Livermore: Was he ever prescribed heroin or morphine for his depression, as was the common medical practice until the mid 1950's?

I wonder if he neglected to try the one thing that could have actually make him better.

My site, on opiates for depression:

WWW.Prohibition-Kills.com

Quick question. Wouldn't a person compromise his lucidity by taking opiates? This is a serious question, as I have never taken opiates for any reason, so I don't know.

Rearden Metal · Jun 16, 2006

Quote from Thunderdog:

Quick question. Wouldn't a person compromise his lucidity by taking opiates? This is a serious question, as I have never taken opiates for any reason, so I don't know.

You've never even popped a vicodin?

The answer: Yes, but only at first and only at higher doses.
Once you're feeding a long-time addiction (a few months to a couple years into the habit- it varies by individual)... there is little to no high at all, even if you're using heroin. You shoot up to get well, not high. (Note: I've never shot H, but I've read up on the subject and conversed extensively with those who have. Also, oxy works pretty much the same way.)

Also: There are many reasons why I recommend buprenorphine (did not exist in Livermore's day) in particular, to those with refractory clinical depression who are unable to get relief from any of the standard tools of medical orthodoxy:

*Bupe is non-euphoric. There is no high at all for the vast majority of bupe patients. However, the medication still compensates for (depression caused by) an endogenous opioid deficiency, by providing the body with a substance which is nearly identical to the peptide which is lacking.

*No tolerance build up. Your ideal dose on the first day is the same as your dose on the 1,000th day. Often, it is actually less.

*Can be legally and indefinitely prescribed to depression patients under the guise of 'treating an opiate addiction problem'. No need to fake pain to obtain the scripts, and no humiliating daily ordeal waiting in lines for hours, as with methadone.

*Bupe is very safe, as there is a 'ceiling effect'. Above a certain level (usually 32 mg.), consuming more bupe will do absolutely nothing to you. No American has ever died of a buprenorphine OD. A handful of French patients have ODed, but only because they abused their medication by injecting it and combining it with benzos.

steve46 · Jun 16, 2006

Yes opiate do affect judgement. I can tell you first hand. Had occasion to administer a syrette of morphine to my thigh during military service (gunshot to the shoulder). About 15 seconds later I was ready to go. You know you are hurt, but you don't give a damn. Apparently all opiates have that same effect. Although I would not want to get shot again, at the time I thought it was pretty cool (the meds, not getting shot) lol. I can see how people get addicted.

Steve

Rearden Metal · Jun 16, 2006

Quote from steve46:

Yes opiate do affect judgement. I can tell you first hand. Had occasion to administer a syrette of morphine to my thigh during military service (gunshot to the shoulder). About 15 seconds later I was ready to go. You know you are hurt, but you don't give a damn. Apparently all opiates have that same effect. Although I would not want to get shot again, at the time I thought it was pretty cool (the meds, not getting shot) lol. I can see how people get addicted.

Steve

You're right, of course. However, once the honeymoon phase is over and you've been addicted for a while- you could shoot ten times that amount and you'd feel absolutely nothing except relief from the withdrawal symptoms.

Since I've been so open here about my own personal use, many of you know exactly what kind of numbers I put up, and exactly what drug I'm on while I do it.

Adamned · Jun 17, 2006

As a man of of open mind I rather enjoyed this thread. One should never grow complacent and should always take in new information. However, the people who argued and rather strongly as if they have a personal passion against Mr. Livermore have gone to far.
Firstly, if you ask any true securities professional in N.Y., Chicago, London or any other place for that matter they will unanimously concur there is much to learn from Livermore's monumental treatise. In my opinion it's only amateurs who are putting forth such negative statements about Livermore. Most likely the modern phenomenon stay at home day trading loser.

This channel of communication is supposed to pertain to Trading void of personal or moral implications. All your breath about his personal life should be ignored completely by genuine scholars of the markets. Many great men who have accomplished extraordinary feats have led terrible personal lives. The man was a genius of his time and wrote timeless nuggets of knowledge that still are pertinent nearly a hundred years on. If you want to remain ignorant and ignore such sound principles its your decision. It makes me quite happy to know that so many people have no clue about the true nature of a trading enterprise. If you chose not to follow such sound principles you have no chance ever at succeeding. All of us professionals will glady accept you funds as you continue to run your head into a brick wall.

Cheers, Adam

nealvan · Jun 17, 2006

I think what alot of people have understanding is the market was more currupt on the surface back then.. The concepts are still the same in that it requires the same mindset to compete in trading today and back then.. I hope that helps some you understand that some things never change.. I understand that some of you can't get into a book like this but I read it at the beach..

Brandonf · Jun 17, 2006

Quote from Thunderdog:

Quick question. Wouldn't a person compromise his lucidity by taking opiates? This is a serious question, as I have never taken opiates for any reason, so I don't know.

No. I take 12mg of hydromorphone (essentially heroin) four times per day for pain. If I did not have the hydromorphone I would be on welfare. Such as it is I am on track to make low seven figures this year. Your body adjusts to the opiats and you function just fine after a week or two.

Brandon

flytiger · Jun 17, 2006

If you don't leave with the money, how can you be called a great trader? What a ridiculous argument. You are judged on a daily basis.

I knew a fellow in Palm Beach, he and his family were brokers at a now defunct brokerage firm. He was around 90 in the '87 crash. He kept a pad in front of him with a pencil, and that's how he tracked his trades. Daily, you'd see fifteen or twenty names on that pad. Black Monday, I asked him what would happen next. Of course, one of you clowns are going to say, "that was easy, I would have nailed that." If you were there, you'd have been crapping your pants like everyone else. He said, margin calls,a nd like clockwork, we melted at 2pm.. I believ e it was the next day, he said, "buy, buy". Pulled a yellow newscllipping from his desk. "Look". There was, by today's standards, a rather crude buy chart of the market selling off to a distressed low. I looked again, and it was the "NEW YORK HERALD" from 1962. He gave me the clipping. I guess at 90, there's not a lot of point of holding momentos. Elaine Garzarelle got a ll the press, but never got back in. Another aside. The cover of Fortune in Sept of 87 was a smiling George Soros sitting on a desk, and the cover saying somethinglike , "this guy says there's a lot of upside left in this market."

This guy knew them all, JH BACHE, Charlie Merrill. He maybe didn't make what Livermore made, but he was good, and he was quiet, and he left his family well off. He started as a runner on the Curb. Saw his picture w/ knickers, Tam O'Shanter. Sorry, but if you don't finish with what you were working for, there is a flaw.

I've been around a while, and I really worry about the numbers on these boards that think that if you can get it, the means don't matter. This fellow told me some Palm Beach stories from the twenties, and it's no different today. If you don't think these markets aren't being subjected to the same forces as eighty years ago, look at the regulatory actions, and realize how many aren't getting caught.

Shazbatz30 · Jun 17, 2006

Quote from Rearden Metal:

You've never even popped a vicodin?

The answer: Yes, but only at first and only at higher doses.
Once you're feeding a long-time addiction (a few months to a couple years into the habit- it varies by individual)... there is little to no high at all, even if you're using heroin. You shoot up to get well, not high. (Note: I've never shot H, but I've read up on the subject and conversed extensively with those who have. Also, oxy works pretty much the same way.)

Also: There are many reasons why I recommend buprenorphine (did not exist in Livermore's day) in particular, to those with refractory clinical depression who are unable to get relief from any of the standard tools of medical orthodoxy:

*Bupe is non-euphoric. There is no high at all for the vast majority of bupe patients. However, the medication still compensates for (depression caused by) an endogenous opioid deficiency, by providing the body with a substance which is nearly identical to the peptide which is lacking.

*No tolerance build up. Your ideal dose on the first day is the same as your dose on the 1,000th day. Often, it is actually less.

*Can be legally and indefinitely prescribed to depression patients under the guise of 'treating an opiate addiction problem'. No need to fake pain to obtain the scripts, and no humiliating daily ordeal waiting in lines for hours, as with methadone.

*Bupe is very safe, as there is a 'ceiling effect'. Above a certain level (usually 32 mg.), consuming more bupe will do absolutely nothing to you. No American has ever died of a buprenorphine OD. A handful of French patients have ODed, but only because they abused their medication by injecting it and combining it with benzos.

Can I obtain buprenorphine from my doctor. Is it legal in US?
Can I buy it online?

Jesse Livermore

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