Ivey Loses Casino Trial

Option_Attack

Option_Attack

Poker great Phil Ivey took a British casino for $12.4 million. They accused him of "edge sorting." They were foolish enough to allow him to manipulate the card orientation so he had a large advantage. I think he has also pulled the same trick at a few other casinos.

Interesting video in the link shows the edge sorting technique.

"The house always wins.
While 38-year-old Phil Ivey has had his share of bad beats, he’s one guy who often flips that axiom on its head. Not this time, though.
Ivey, whose prowess at the tables has earned an estimated $100 million, lost his case against a British casino he accused of improperly keeping his winnings, ESPN reported. He alleged that Genting Casinos owed him $12.4 million.
Lawyers for the casino, however, managed to convince the British High Court that Ivey used the “edge-sorting” tactic at a casino in the tony Mayfair area of London to win all that cash. That means he kept track of card values by watching for design imperfections in the deck.
Ivey, according to the Daily Mail, started his run by losing around $800,000. At that point, he asked the house’s permission to increase his stake to $225,000 per hand, and then spent seven hours over two nights cleaning up..."


http://blogs.marketwatch.com/themar...uling-that-cost-a-poker-superstar-12-million/
 
Option_Attack said:
Poker great Phil Ivey took a British casino for $12.4 million. They accused him of "edge sorting." They were foolish enough to allow him to manipulate the card orientation so he had a large advantage. I think he has also pulled the same trick at a few other casinos.

Interesting video in the link shows the edge sorting technique.

"The house always wins.
While 38-year-old Phil Ivey has had his share of bad beats, he’s one guy who often flips that axiom on its head. Not this time, though.
Ivey, whose prowess at the tables has earned an estimated $100 million, lost his case against a British casino he accused of improperly keeping his winnings, ESPN reported. He alleged that Genting Casinos owed him $12.4 million.
Lawyers for the casino, however, managed to convince the British High Court that Ivey used the “edge-sorting” tactic at a casino in the tony Mayfair area of London to win all that cash. That means he kept track of card values by watching for design imperfections in the deck.
Ivey, according to the Daily Mail, started his run by losing around $800,000. At that point, he asked the house’s permission to increase his stake to $225,000 per hand, and then spent seven hours over two nights cleaning up..."


http://blogs.marketwatch.com/themar...uling-that-cost-a-poker-superstar-12-million/
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This is hard for me to understand how this is illegal? If the casino used improperly cut cards and he was able to identify an advantage or edge because of it, how is this the players' issue? Appears to me he is being penalized for being a smart guy.
 
Exactly! Much like the way that casinos will ban you if they think you are counting at Blackjack. You are not allowed to have an edge. I know that counting isn't illegal and I don't think edge sorting is, but they can still ban you, and in this case keep your money. Casinos either win...or they win!


CliffordHarris said:
This is hard for me to understand how this is illegal? If the casino used improperly cut cards and he was able to identify an advantage or edge because of it, how is this the players' issue? Appears to me he is being penalized for being a smart guy.
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They're happy to let drunks play and lose their shirts though.

They let Ivey play for two days, then decided he was cheating? After he had waxed them? This sounds totally wrong and I suspect he got the visitng American treatment from the London court.

Ironically, they could have played up the big win and garnered that much in publicity. Now they are shown as sore losers. What big hitter would ever go there?
 
If the casino changed out the card decks more often - wouldn't that help mitigate his "learning" cycle in terms of identifying edge imperfections ? I mean, they change the dies at the craps table. Anybody know how often a casino changes out the cards ? Great post, btw.
 
Estoppel?
"Genting’s Crockfords casino agreed to transfer funds directly to his account, but then decided not to."
Did Mr Ivey act in reliance on that undertaking, with the knowledge and acquiescence of the casino?

Would be interesting to read a copy of the judgment, rather than editorial. I don't see it here yet:

TLQ/13/1119 Ivey v Genting Casinos (UK) Ltd

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2014/
 
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While I don't think casinos should be permitted to retain their license if they ban card counters, there is a very significant difference between that and this London crap. In Vegas no one takes away what you have already won they just stop your play at that point. Ivey had already won the money and, as far as I see it, won it fair and square; they supplied the decks.

He was foolish not to have made security arrangements and have taken the cash with him. If you are working an edge against a casino you need to follow the old rule -- "take the money and run". There is no axiom that relies on the wire transfer being sent by scum.

Option_Attack said:
Exactly! Much like the way that casinos will ban you if they think you are counting at Blackjack. You are not allowed to have an edge. I know that counting isn't illegal and I don't think edge sorting is, but they can still ban you, and in this case keep your money. Casinos either win...or they win!
More...
 
This issue is being actively discusses in the 2+2 poker forums, NVG sub forum. Very interesting, and a lot of us serious gamblers are going back and forth with different views. This case hinges on the premise that Ivey asked for certain concessions that were granted by management. He also was in the company of a known advantage player who had been banned from several properties for edge sorting. Changing out the cards more often would be of no help. I would say that at least 70% of diamond back cards in use in casinos around the world are vulnerable to edge sorting. pretty complicated scam, if you want to know anything, just ask. unfortunately I am kind of an expert. lol :)
 
Such a classic setup and the casino (apparently) never saw it coming.

Ivey: "Gee, I'm down $800,000. How about letting me raise the limit way up so I can try and get it back..."
Casino: " Sure Phil, you are a dumbass and we'd be happy to take all your money..."

But then, somehow, he starts winning!!?? Who would have thought that would happen??? :p
 
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