Its about time:judge rules National Day of Prayer unconstitutional

[Wallet]

Quote from stu:

Your argument with me then is not that Wallet is wrong which by that you're suggesting he is, but the difference between.... 13 colonies were founded beginning 1607. and 13 colonies already being established by 1607.

So were I to correct my statements as follows , would they also be undisputed?

America was already being Colonized into the original 13 states
but those 13 colonies were being established in 1607 largely by European settlers.
Colonists were already here as early as 1607 in the name of the King under Company patents and warrants by which means the 13 Colonies were being established .

My hasty implication that the 13 colonies were already established was incorrect. So my apologies for any incorrect impression made.



Yet strangely , you have no argument against the utterly incorrect and misleading re-writing of history first made by Wallet.
Now why is that?
How come you landed on my case so vigorously for not expressing things clearly enough, but ignore Wallet's grossly inaccurate and untrue representation of the 13 Colonies and first settlers.


Completely untrue. They were NOT the first settlers by any means. In addition Virginia had already been established as a Colony which meant the 13 Colonies were already being established.


Virginia already had a colony . The 13 colonies were founded along the east coast beginning in 1607 and NOT in 1620 by a group superstitious Bible thumpers.


This country was certainly NOT established to promote and freely worship the God of the Bible. It already was established by the London Company and was to the greatest degree promoting nothing but trade.

Wallet's version would have America as an escape from one tyranny of God and King, straight into another one of God and Christians.

Yet you didn't mention a word against Wallet. How come you are so eager to attack only one side on this subject?
Don't tell me , you're superstitious too.


Also, please notice, despite calling me stu-pid I refrained from referring to you as Loo-crumb.

Stu,

When the Mayflower landed there was only ONE Colony, Virginia, not 13, not even a plan to colonize 13 at that time. Virginia first assembled it's original House of Burgesses in 1619 only one year before the Pilgrim's arrival. You make it sound like there were thousands of people sprouting civilization up and down the eastern seaboard prior to the Pilgrims arrival, that view of history is in err.

I know it's the dream of atheist everywhere to erase the history and any mention of the Christian religious roots that formed this country, but all you have to do is look at the documents written by our Founding Fathers to plainly see Christianity's influence on this country.

I don't know if you are purposely trying to promote their atheistic agenda or just blindly following, or fooled by the lie but the attempt to separate US History from it's religious (Christian) roots is wrong and revisionist.

Nuff said, Anyone with half a brain can see through your guise.

 

[jem]

Atheist revisionist history... it seems to be missing something.

And a second thought... I suspect stu did not grow up in the states. No kid could have made it out of grade with such faulty notions.

 

[stu]

Quote from Lucrum:

I'd think it'd be more accurate to have stopped with "colonized". The 13 original English colonies that rebelled against King George did not exist until many years later.

However, the first did exist, before Mayflower and there’s no doubt the process of colonization had begun anyway.

Colonies and settlements were being formed and abandoned and reformed earlier than the Puritans' less than proficient arrival. Roanoke Colony, Virginia Company, Jamestown Settlement, Bermuda, Henricopolis, Plymouth Company, Popham Colony, Society of Merchant Venturers (Newfoundland),Cuper's Cove, Bristol's Hope, London and Bristol Company, New Cambriol, St. John's, Newfoundland, Plymouth Council for New England.

Pilgrims did nothing in the way of colonization that was not, or had not, been already done previously.

Quote from Lucrum:
Had wallet been a little more arrogant and condescending I probably would have noticed his error.

I'm not so sure. Take a look at Wallet's original post again. It's arrogant / condescending enough. I dare say I am no worse in response.
My suggestion to you is, it's because Wallet's falls heavily to a religious message, you ignored his and went straight for mine.

Quote from Lucrum:
I believe they were the second permanent English settlers.

It's fair to say surely that colonization was underway and colonies had been laid out between British companies through the Crown by then anyway . Virginia for instance from 1607 leading inevitably on to the formation of the 13 others, which is what historically happened, whatever path one says was taken in accomplishing it.

In context, the Pilgrims managed 1 in the end, and only after years and years of settlements and colonization by others were already here. This whole colonization/settlement process in all reality was up and running from the 1500's. Looking back it is incorrect in my view to ignore the history just so that one can submit to a colorful tale that it all started with Mayflower, and religious sales propoganda that Puritans established America from its Christian roots. It's a ludicrous idea, blindly accepted , historically innacurate and manifestly untrue.
Just sayin'.

 

[stu]

Quote from Wallet:

Stu,

When the Mayflower landed there was only ONE Colony, Virginia, not 13, not even a plan to colonize 13 at that time. Virginia first assembled it's original House of Burgesses in 1619 only one year before the Pilgrim's arrival. You make it sound like there were thousands of people sprouting civilization up and down the eastern seaboard prior to the Pilgrims arrival, that view of history is in err.

There certainly were enough people sprouting civilization up and down the eastern seaboard well before Mayflower. A substantial contingency of British had been present for years. Even the French and Russians had shown themselves.

There's a long list of British colonies in North America, settlements and colonization and abandonments of the same , prior to Mayflower.

So even if there was only ONE colony established ( which I strongly contest, as history shows many had been formed and abandoned ) it is clear even at the most basic level, the colonization process was de facto in progress and plenty was going on before the Puritans, who themselves did nothing, that had or was not already being done.

Puritans and Mayflower are symbolic and emotional but nevertheless are another superficial and an inaccurate representation of history made by over enthusiastic religious story telling, to put it politely.

Quote from Wallet:

I know it's the dream of atheist everywhere to erase the history and any mention of the Christian religious roots that formed this country, but all you have to do is look at the documents written by our Founding Fathers to plainly see Christianity's influence on this country.

No Wallet, you're confused about the dream of theists to erase, twist, misrepresent history wherever they are. For instance, you do that right there.

What documents !?

There is no mention of Christian, Christianity or any Christian religious roots anywhere within the Founding Documents. Who told you there was?
How strange it is that you would try to imply there are.

Unless of course you are just referring to the many old worn out chestnuts of misconceptions that those things are mentioned, by promoting the religious agenda that wants to inculcate the fictitious notion that Christianity invented America , and as a fully paid up member of the Superstitious Religion Club , you never checked for yourself that it actually didn't

Quote from Wallet:

I don't know if you are purposely trying to promote their atheistic agenda or just blindly following, or fooled by the lie but the attempt to separate US History from it's religious (Christian) roots is wrong and revisionist.

And you are promoting what agenda again?
You have no special pass to make untrue statements whenever you like without being challenged, just because they are religious ones.
Do you say people are atheist pejoratively just because YOUR facts are wrong, or because you already have an agenda ?

And why are you talking about US History all of a sudden? This was about American History before and at the time of Mayflower and Puritans .You've produced totally incorrect and misleading religious statements about their place in American History, whose facts have been turned almost into no more than folk law by a Christian religious fantasy machine through generations for you to blindly believe in.

Puritans and Mayflower did not establish America as much as some folk laughingly imagine they did, nor did they or anyone else do anything to found America by religion. If anything inclusion of Christian religion was obviously resisted by the Founding Fathers, , along with every other religious superstition. Quite rightly too. Even the Baptists at the time realized the need to excluding it.

Otherwise it would be throughout Founding Law if religion was ever intended to be used to form the country.

It isn't and it never was.



So Puritans left England to be free from religious persecution just so that they could ensure thereafter Christians could impose their religion onto Americans.? I don't think that sounds anything like reasonable l and neither thank goodness did the Founding Fathers.

Quote from Wallet:

The very first American settlers and why they came here.
The Mayflower Compact.

Factually incorrect. They were not the first American settlers. The colony of Virginia was already established in any event you said as much . Goodness sakes Walter Raleigh had established settlement and colonization at Roanoke Island in the 1500's. Jon Smith's New England Virginia settlements in 1587. It's just silly and misleading to pretend the Mayflower brought the first American settlers.

Quote from Wallet:

...a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia,....

the colony of Virginia was established in 1607 anyway, years before the Pilgrims arrived.

Quote from Wallet:

this country was established to promote and freely worship the God of the Bible

Factually incorrect. Tobacco and gold were a couple of reasons America was established, and the rest were essentially to do with trade. Not God nor the Bible.

 

[stu]

Quote from jem:

Atheist revisionist history... it seems to be missing something.

And a second thought... I suspect stu did not grow up in the states. No kid could have made it out of grade with such faulty notions.

What, you mean like you are supposed to have made it all the way through law school in the states by using the word site for cite, which you only learned not to do on this board.
You've plenty of credibility when it comes down to faulty notions

Difference is , I got through grade school fine, but grew up after leaving school and didn't accept everything at face value because someone had inserted God , religion or Pilgrim into a sentence..

You obviously still have a lot to learn in that regard.

 

[jem]

Quote from stu:

What, you mean like you are supposed to have made it all the way through law school in the states by using the word site for cite, which you only learned not to do on this board.
You've plenty of credibility when it comes down to faulty notions

Difference is , I got through grade school fine, but grew up after leaving school and didn't accept everything at face value because someone had inserted God , religion or Pilgrim into a sentence..

You obviously still have a lot to learn in that regard.

another argument lacking in credibility.

1. you challenge dictionaries over the definition of athiest.
2. you challenge historians over whether Jesus is a historical figure.
3. you challenge physicists over whether there is evidence of design in our universe.
4. No you are trying to argue that typos on anonymous website amount to something.

 

[peilthetraveler]

Christmas & Easter are next. No more vacations during those time breaks for your kids. "Sorry Timmy...you cant open your presents until after you get home from school."

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from peilthetraveler:

Christmas & Easter are next. No more vacations during those time breaks for your kids. "Sorry Timmy...you cant open your presents until after you get home from school."

we can only hope so. why should a school system be in the business of promoting organized superstition anyhow?

 

[jem]

Quote from Free Thinker:

we can only hope so. why should a school system be in the business of promoting organized superstition anyhow?

Perhaps because of the results we have been reaping since we took those "superstitions" out.

Look what has happened to our public schools. Look at what Harvard graduates have done to wall street. Look what the unbridled greed has done to our economic system. I have nothing against some greed on wall steet but this new take the system down for a bonus greed is out of control.

Even if you don't believe in God. Even if you are Karl Marx, you should realize at the very least the Christian religion as it was part of the U.S. school system and culture was a good thing for just about everyone but witches.

 

[Wallet]

For Stu,

"There is no mention of Christian, Christianity or any Christian religious roots anywhere within the Founding Documents. Who told you there was?
How strange it is that you would try to imply there are."


Let’s See,…….

The Declaration of Independence starts,

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

And ends,……..

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

Hummmmm, ……..God, Creator and Divine Providence.

April 10 1606

The First Virginia Charter,

(Excerpt) Wee, greately commending and graciously accepting of theire desires to the furtherance of soe noble a worke which may, by the providence of Almightie God, hereafter tende to the glorie of His Divine Majestie in propagating of Christian religion to suche people as yet live in darkenesse and miserable ignorance of the true knoweledge and worshippe of

1620 Mayflower compact

In the name of God, Amen., …………… Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia;

1639 The Fundamental Orders of Connecticut……………..

For as much as it hath pleased Almighty God by the wise disposition of his divine providence so to order and dispose of things that we the Inhabitants and Residents of Windsor, Hartford and Wethersfield are now cohabiting and dwelling in and upon the River of Connectecotte and the lands thereunto adjoining; and well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Government established according to God

Fundamental Agreement, or Original Constitution of the Colony of New Haven, June 4, 1639….

THE 4th day of the 4th month, called June, 1639, all the free planters assembled together in a general meeting, to consult about settling civil government, according to GOD, and the nomination of persons that might be found, by consent of all, fittest in all respects for the foundation work of a church,……

Query I. WHETHER the scriptures do hold forth a perfect rule for the direction and government of all men in all duties which they are to perform to GOD and men, as well in families and commonwealth, as in matters of the church ? This was assented unto by all, no man dissenting, as was expressed by holding up of hands. Afterwards it was read over to them, that they might see in what words their vote was expressed. They again expressed their consent by holding up their hands, no man dissenting.

1676 The First Thanksgiving Proclamation……………….

"The Holy God having by a long and Continual Series of his Afflictive dispensations……

.Charter of Delaware – 1701

First

BECAUSE no People can be truly happy, though under the greatest Enjoyment of Civil Liberties, if abridged of the Freedom of their Consciences, as to their Religious Profession and Worship: And Almighty God being the only Lord of Conscience, Father of Lights and Spirits; and the Author as well as Object of all divine Knowledge, Faith and Worship, who only doth enlighten the Minds, and persuade and convince the Understandings of People, I do hereby grant and declare, That no Person or Persons, inhabiting In this Province or Territories, who shall confess and acknowledge One almighty God, the Creator, Upholder and Ruler of the World; and professes him or themselves obliged to live quietly under the Civil Government, shall be in any Case molested or prejudiced, in his or their Person or Estate, because of his or their conscientious Persuasion or Practice, nor be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious Worship, Place or Ministry, contrary to his or their Mind, or to do or suffer any other Act or Thing, contrary to their religious Persuasion.

Shall I continue????????????????????????????

Document after document, when The Colonists gathered they credited GOD ( the God of the Bible) for their provision and guidance...........

52 of the 55 Constitution signers were members of established colonial churches.

No Stu, it's you who ignore the truth.