Iterative Refinement

[ljyoung]

Quote from NYCMB:

Hi R/R, Ijyoung, nkhoi and Neoxx and anybody who is interested in PV.

I have problem understanding the April 1 / 14:55 (close of) bar. The bar on Incresing Black Volume in the non-dominant direction. Normally, a black bar on decreasing volume is expected for retrace in a up traverse. Could someone give me an answer?

Also, I noticed that pt2 & pt3 of the orange down traverse are inside the turquoise up traverse; and, pt 2 & pt 3 of the green up traverse are inside the orange down traverse. Do we have 5-min-ES traverse or Faster Fractal traverse? TIA !

Hi NYCMB,

You no doubt noticed that I weaseled out of designating the downtraverse you mentioned as being standard vs fftraverse. You will also notice that from the replies to your question that this differentiation can be tricky. R/R sums things up nicely and taking things a step further is what it's all about.

In this post http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2368018#post2368018 and this post http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2368272#post2368272 the question was posed as to what makes a channel vs a traverse in these particular situations and I gave my answer without going into detail.

IMO, the same thing differentiates a fftraverse from a standard traverse and that thing is PACE. One way pace does this has already been discussed, in detail, if not always with consummate clarity, and that is by 'forcing' a new P2. If you need a new P2, then perforce you need a new P3. We can thank romanus for all his hard work in this area.

Bottom line is, as Jack has said a bazillion times - pace is the leading indicator.

lj

Don't forget there's a Ben blab beginning at noon today. From Barron's PD:

United States : Chairman Speech
Released For 4/3/2009 12:00:00 PM

Description
Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke delivers closing keynote address on the Fed's balance sheet to Richmond Fed's 2009 Credit Markets Symposium in Charlotte, NC. No Q&A expected.

 

[Neoxx]

The Day

 

[Ezzy]

Quote from ljyoung:

IMO, the same thing differentiates a fftraverse from a standard traverse and that thing is PACE. One way pace does this has already been discussed, in detail, if not always with consummate clarity, and that is by 'forcing' a new P2. If you need a new P2, then perforce you need a new P3. We can thank romanus for all his hard work in this area.

LJ,

Not sure what you are getting at with pace, or how you would define pace in what you're proposing. Pace being volume levels or steepness of tapes/traverses.

We do get VE's with increasing pace/volume and widen a traverse into a channel, and creating FF traverses. But being able to point to a place and say "this isn't a traverse because it lacked pace here" doesn't sound right. If you don't get a return to dominance because of a lack in volume, then yes in that example it's true. But to say Pace is "the" difference is harder to quantify. Of course volume underlies all price movement so in a way yes it is the main factor, but as a stand alone to determine traverse or no traverse, no. It's just one part.

Those are my thoughts, and still working through it as well. If I'm off on what you're getting at maybe you could give a little more detail on what you mean.
- EZ

 

[NYCMB]

Quote from Ezzy:

1) It happens. --- RTL BO, ----

Could you select the one (or more than one) which meetS your difination of RTL BO?

A) Bar on IBV is totally outside RTL.
B) Bar on IBV is piercing and closes outside RTL.
C) Bar on IBV is piercing and closes at RTL.
D) Bar on IBV is piercing and closes inside RTL.
It'll be very helpful if you can provide some ES charts which present the combination of--- (a) bar on Increasing volume in the non-dominant direction (b) RTL BO.

2) If the pt2 is inside the prior traverse it's a pt 2, not thee pt2.

I can not figure out what "not thee pt2" mean. Could you explain? TIA!

 

[Ezzy]

Quote from NYCMB:

Quote from Ezzy:

1) It happens. --- RTL BO, ----

Could you select the one (or more than one) which meetS your difination of RTL BO? . . .


I can not figure out what "not thee pt2" mean. Could you explain? TIA!

The first 2 are BO's, the 2nd 2 are FBO's. (though "C" could continue and BO) For clarity, you can get increasing volume on all.

2nd Q, the market will create another point 2 which will be the real pt 2 for the traverse.

For examples/charts, you'll have to find your own

 

[ljyoung]

Quote from Ezzy:

LJ,

Not sure what you are getting at with pace, or how you would define pace in what you're proposing. Pace being volume levels or steepness of tapes/traverses.

We do get VE's with increasing pace/volume and widen a traverse into a channel, and creating FF traverses. But being able to point to a place and say "this isn't a traverse because it lacked pace here" doesn't sound right. If you don't get a return to dominance because of a lack in volume, then yes in that example it's true. But to say Pace is "the" difference is harder to quantify. Of course volume underlies all price movement so in a way yes it is the main factor, but as a stand alone to determine traverse or no traverse, no. It's just one part.

Those are my thoughts, and still working through it as well. If I'm off on what you're getting at maybe you could give a little more detail on what you mean.
- EZ

Ezzy,

Here's something from romanus: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2342372&highlight=P2#post2342372

lj

Forgot to say that my definition of pace is exactly the same as yours. No inventions.

 

[ljyoung]

One more thing ezzy. R/R's statement from his most recent post sums things up succinctly:

Judging from Spyder's charts these are probably FF. He has said a FF traverse lacks something required of the 5 min Traverse.

Once my traverse has the obvious attributes of a 5 min Traverse like x2x, pt2 outside of RTL, what I think are proper tapes and Gaussian relationships, etc. I am unable to differentiate objectively from his that he annotates as FF traverses.

These two posts http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...018#post2368018 and http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...272#post2368272 are the best I can do right now towards pointing to a solution to the quandry.

lj

 

[nkhoi]

you didn't copy the link properly.

 

[Ezzy]

I assume those are the links from 2 pages back, maybe these will work:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2368018#post2368018
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2368272#post2368272

Guess we're in the same boat here.

 

[nkhoi]

Quote from NYCMB:

]
...
I have problem understanding the April 1 / 14:55 (close of) bar. The bar on Incresing Black Volume in the non-dominant direction. Normally, a black bar on decreasing volume is expected for retrace in a up traverse. Could someone give me an answer?

... TIA !

I decompress the chart a bit, so if you really focus you could see the decreasing black or you could pretend it was a decreasing black vol and if WMCN comes as what you anticpate then it's all good, don't let just 1 bar trouble you so much.