Iterative Refinement

Quote from Avi 8:

... Simming, live trading or anything else NOT accomplished in this order results in one thing: Delay in mastery of MADA. (Which is why it took me a year on 'M'). Feel free to make the same mistake I did...

QFT! Spyder has repeated this MANY, MANY times! but it seems like many (myself included) needed to be told using a baseball bat to the head :D

It is well worth the time required to build a solid foundation and there is no need to rush. Make sure you have a solid understanding and have built the foundation of the house properly. I know I would rather be a slow and methodical builder than to have built the house in haste only to have it collapse in on its inhabitants.
 
Quote from Avi 8:


Simming is the last step, the 'A' in MADA.


Avi 8, thank you for your feedback. You address an important issue with the MADA and the sim, and I think this can help me with some further clarifications.

These steps are to be accomplised in order. Notice the layout of the futures journal. The syllabus was laid out in this fashion.

I remember seeing MADA but I'm not sure where. I don't remember seeing it in the futures journal. Was this introduced in the iterative refinement thread? I'm purposely not reading the IR thread until I finish the futures thread. I want to be "on the same page" as everyone. I figured the IR thread would mention things that I haven't yet learned in the futures journal. If this is incorrect, please let me know.

I mispoke earlier, I thought May was the STR/SQU month but in fact it's the Fundamentals Review. For now with str/squ I'm just observing and not basing any decisions on it.

I was not under the impression that at this point in the futures journal we should not be using the sim. Quite the contrary, I've seen others mention using the sim and I've seen spyder mention it as well. Of course I understand everyone is progressing differently and that even if others are using the sim maybe I'm not ready for it?

For me the sim was a way to check the progress being made and also to see how it's working. I guess I was looking for that kind of feedback. Since the futures journal is over and closed, using the simulator or posting here are the only two methods of feedback that I can think of.

The way the futures thread is laid out, the trading part comes at the end, after learning all the tools. However, at the same time, during the futures thread, I read that one should be able to be profitable using just the ES & YM. So this seems to be a contradiction to me. I guess in my mind I thought it'd be good to be profitable with just these tools before adding more, which is kind of what i've been doing. If that is incorrect, then I will stop the sim until I reach the appropriate time in the journal.

Also I think there are a lot of new concepts here in the IR thread that I'm not aware of. I've tried reading this journal, not from the beginning, but from the current date. There's a lot of stuff I don't know. For example the WMCN, etc. So I decided that I would finish the futures journal before reading the IR thread to avoid confusing myself or going too fast.

Anyway, I think I understand the point made by you & ivob. There are things I'm not annotating properly and I should work on those rather than entry/exits. I will address this in another reply.

-cunparis
 
Quote from ivob:

Hello,

Just a few tips.

Hi ivob. It's great to hear from you. I especially appreciated your feedback in the futures journal and it's great to get personal feedback from you here.

I think your annotations are not sufficient:

- It's okay to draw tapes but I wonder if you really know the difference between a tape and a channel as it doesn't show in your chart and you use the same colors for tapes and channels. Be more precise and draw everything. Don't miss anything.

First I will admit my annotations on the chart are not perfect. I often draw in the tape before the 2nd bar is finished and sometimes it moves a bit more and I don't update the tape.

Bundlemaker's video helped me a lot with the channel drawing. What I do is start a tape with the first 2 bars of a traverse. Once price goes lower I make the new low pt 3 and draw a channel. Sometimes price stays in the tape and it becomes a channel. Is this correct?

I use grey for the tapes and I use a green or similar for up channels and red or similar for down channels. Perhaps if I changed the colors of the tapes from grey to the up/down color that would be better?

- You miss channels. Every time you get increasing volume: Draw a new channel. Doing this helps you to understand what's going on. (for example when that channel is broken you expect point 2 and 3, etc). For example 10:05 - 10:15 form an upchannel but you only drew a tape.

I'm sorry but I don't really understand this one (the new channel for increasing volume). I will go back and look at some of your charts, and at the same time if you'd be so kind as to elaborate on this it would be very helpful.

- Annotate pennants and laterals. They also help to understand what's going on and imo are an essential element of the method. Doing this (plus understanding what's going on) you would have easily held after the 10:40 FTT and reversed/exited somewhere in the 11:00 bar as it formed an FBO (on decr. black) and you would have pocketed a point or 2. (providing you understand quickly what's going on). First understand completely what's going on and then learn to be quick btw. All these things you don't see if you don't annotate.

I don't remember the pennants being discussed yet in the futures journal, and there hasn't been a lot of discussion about laterals. Today I looked back at some charts of others for last friday and I see how they have identified these. I agree with you that I really need to work on this. If anyone happens to have any links on this please let me know.

- Be careful reversing. SCT is not an option at this stage. Make a difference between exiting and reversing. Exit if not sure and wait for pt3 to re-enter in the other direction. If you reverse and you're wrong you are wrong twice.

I totally agree and until I get the hang of it I think this is what I should be doing. I enter once and if I'm wrong I exit and sit out. That will probably also make me think more about entering, in order to avoid having to sit out for a while. ;)

Hope this helps.
Ivo [/B]

Very helpful. Sometimes it's obvious to others but one doesn't see it. Thank you very much for your feedback. Your new channel on increasing volume is interesting and I'm going to try to figure out how to do that.
 
I designed the Futures Journal as a step-by-step guide for learning the various portions of the methodology. With time, and purposeful learning, anyone can begin to understand the concepts discussed. However, the monthly discussions, which break down the various tool sets into smaller components, represent a resource where one can return (again and again if need be) to augment one's understanding.

The Iterative Refinement threads brings these various components together into a cohesive picture. First one needs to learn. In other words, now we learn to apply the lessons of the past. Do you need an understanding of all the tools involved? A basic knowledge yes, but do you need to use all the tools discussed? Absolutely not.

With respect to using the SIM before one has reached a point in the devlopment process, last year's journal is filled with examples of people who chose their own path with respect to attempting to trade too early, and against my repeated warnings. One must devlop a minimum level of competency before progessing to other concepts. By example, you've not yet mastered annotating a chart, but have determined that SIM trading will 'let you know' where you stand with respect to your understanding. How does SIM trading assist your ability to annotate?

The best pathway from here is to follow the advice provided, while at the same time, progressing through your readings of last year's journal. As you read, questions you have now, locate their answers in the future, and what provides confusion at present locates clarity as you progress. While reading, focus on the 'M' portion of your charts. By time you 'catch up' to this thread, you'll find most areas of confusion have been addressed, and you'll be ready to move to the 'A' portion.

Of course, YMMV.

- Spydertrader
 
Quote from cunparis:


..First I will admit my annotations on the chart are not perfect. I often draw in the tape before the 2nd bar is finished and sometimes it moves a bit more and I don't update the tape.
..

No problem with drawing tapes. That's optional I would say. You have to draw the channels however and know what is a tape and what is a channel. You cannot leave them out if you want to understand completely what is going on. The colors don't matter, it's just to make it easier for yourself.

Quote from cunparis:


I'm sorry but I don't really understand this one (the new channel for increasing volume).

Well. A channel is finally determined by its point 3. A point 3 always has increasing volume. If you draw a channel but there's no increasing volume then it's not a channel (yet).

Quote from cunparis:


I don't remember the pennants being discussed yet in the futures journal, and there hasn't been a lot of discussion about laterals. Today I looked back at some charts of others for last friday and I see how they have identified these. I agree with you that I really need to work on this. If anyone happens to have any links on this please let me know.

Annotating pennants and laterals are part of the M of MADA. It's an essential part of the monitoring and understanding what's going on. I'd say you definately are too early with simming as Mike already pointed out.

regards,
Ivo
 
Quote from Spydertrader:

The best pathway from here is to follow the advice provided, while at the same time, progressing through your readings of last year's journal. As you read, questions you have now, locate their answers in the future, and what provides confusion at present locates clarity as you progress. While reading, focus on the 'M' portion of your charts. By time you 'catch up' to this thread, you'll find most areas of confusion have been addressed, and you'll be ready to move to the 'A' portion.

Of course, YMMV.

I must admit I have conflicting feelings on this advice. On one hand I trust you and will take your advice. No more sim until I get to the point in the journal where you say we should sim.

On the other hand, it seems unfair that the people who participated in the futures journal were able to post their charts, ask questions, and get feedback to help them improve. Whereas now, a year later, those of us reading the futures journal are a bit handicapped without this luxury. For example, it's possible to make mistakes annotating throughout the entire journal without realizing it. Yes, people have probably already made the mistakes and already gotten feedback. So the information should be there just waiting to be uncovered right? But each person's journey is slightly different and a journal of over a thousand pages is a lot of material. To me it's like the difference between learning with a coach and learning from a book. It's not the same.

Some people lurk and for them I think it's the same if the journal happened a year ago or present day. I am a person who tends to participate a lot so it's frustrating for me. If I were here during the futures journal I'm sure I would have been posting on a regular basis. So that's why I feel a bit odd.

The futures journal requires a tremendous amount of effort. But I'm convinced it works and I'm going to do what it takes to catch up and participate in the IR thread.
 
Quote from cunparis:


I don't remember the pennants being discussed yet in the futures journal, and there hasn't been a lot of discussion about laterals. Today I looked back at some charts of others for last friday and I see how they have identified these. I agree with you that I really need to work on this. If anyone happens to have any links on this please let me know.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Read this please
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...hlight=laterals and formations&pagenumber=887

And this

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...hlight=laterals and formations&pagenumber=888

Study Spyder's charts in the futures jouranl, do you see what I see? :D
 
Quote from cunparis:

I must admit I have conflicting feelings on this advice. On one hand I trust you and will take your advice. No more sim until I get to the point in the journal where you say we should sim.
Hi cunparis,

I would suggest you post your charts daily and debrief. Just monitor and note where you monitored and/or anticipated something and it DID or DID NOT happen, then as you debrief, if you are stuck throw up the question(s) and let the group offer help. This is a very colaborative effort and many are here to share in the learning and growing together (with each at his/her own pace).

I will say this, I was a late comer to the party also :D

But I have found that even though I was not around during the creation and development of the journal, the members who have been at it longer and have "Been there, Done that" are still around to give good advise to help direct focus in on deficient areas.

As a person studying these methods sees the power of these techniques (and they are powerful indeed), it is easy to become impatient and want to jump ahead. Believe me, I KNOW :D

I am sure I speak for eveyone here helping and learning when I say, feel free to continue to post your questions and thoughts here.
 
Quote from cunparis:

On the other hand, it seems unfair that the people who participated in the futures journal were able to post their charts, ask questions, and get feedback to help them improve.

I don't recall anyone suggesting you should not post charts or request feedback. Perhaps you could link to the post which implied, indicated or inferred such advice. I do recall suggesting you focus on the 'M' portion of the M-A-D-A process, as you have yet to post a thoroughly annotated chart. As such, moving onto Analysis or Decision Making before mastering Monitoring represents a flawed decision.

Need proof? Look at your analysis with respect to the advice provided within the last several posts. Your flawed analysis led you to an incorrect conclusion.

Perhaps, monitoring teaches more than simply drawing trend lines.

- Spydertrader
 
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