Iterative Refinement

Quote from Spydertrader:

So ... why not a few of you pull up the rest of the day, and walk through the process as the market moves from Point One to Point Two to point Three. IF people see things differently, the various points of view can often cause things to 'click' for those still struggling. Heck, you can discuss the moves in real time if need be. So what if things don't work out exactly as you thought at first. When one is attempting to learn something new, expect mistakes to be made now and then...
HTH.

- Spydertrader
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Thanks Spyder!

I have re-done the remaining drill bars with my new understanding. It appears that Avi had a real good grasp on the concept but I am struggling to understand why bar 12 is not considered dom?

Bar 8: is an inside bar (SYM Pennant) creation on decreasing volume with price closing above the prior bars close. slowing of the money velocity looking for market transition back to dominance. Not sure if bar 8 is considered a spike bar?
Bar 8 = non-dom

Bar 9: Price BO RTL on IBV, The prior traverse is complete and a new sequence is beginning we do not tie one event to another (i.e. no lateral here).
Bar 9 = dom

Bar 10: IBGS on DBV, price moving laterally, anticipate PT2 creation
Bar 10 = non-dom

Bar 11: DRV, spike bar, also shows a slowing of the money velocity looking for market to transition back to dominance. created PT3
Bar 11 = non-dom

Bar 12: Prive increasing, volume increasing, VE, sequence completion
Bar 12 = return to dom

Any thoughts, insights on bar 12?
 
Quote from ehorn:

Thanks Spyder!

....

Any thoughts, insights on bar 12?
More...

How about a lateral starting at bar 9. Making bar 12 unknown.

<img src="http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=2120590">
 

Attachments

Quote from bi9foot:

How about a lateral starting at bar 9. Making bar 12 unknown...
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Nicely done,

Jeesh! I even wrote "price moving laterally" and cannot get my mind to "see" the lateral. I need to do some re-programming... :)
 
SpyderTrader

I have questions understanding with the concept of

Dom vs Non_Dom has to do with sequences which tells us when to anticipate a signal for change.


questions ( PLEASE SEE ATTACHED CHART FOR A CLEARER PICTURE OF MY QUESTIONS ).

1) Bar 7 is the first dominant bar of the day and we can now anticipate a signal for change. At the forrest
level, using just the 5 minute ES, I see a dominate down transverse and at Bar 7 ( RED LINE ) and an anticipated point 3
occuring by way of a lateral or a non dominate transverse. At the forrest level we trade FTT and pt 3s.

What signal for change are we anticipating after Bar 7 ???

2) At the heart of my question/confusion is that I see the sequence that began at the last 3 bars on 10/6 ending on the first
or second bar of 10/7. What is a sequence ? I was under the impression that sequences are contained within the dominate
or non dominate tranverses.

THANK YOU !
 

Attachments

Lets continue from where spyder left off and complete the rest of the day.

Here is a blank chart for 10/7.

Continuing from ehorn's post, we have established bar 12 is non-dom until proven othewise.

The chart shows a switch in dominance in price to the down side has taken place as it moves to create the traverse to finish building a channel.

I am not sure where the up dominance was confirmed and where the change signal to go short is ( I am working through some possibilities)

EDIT: I have labeled bar numbers on the chart for easy reference
 

Attachments

Quote from 8833broc:

What signal for change are we anticipating after Bar 7 ???
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On my chart, Bar 7 shows increasing Volume and closes back inside the previous bar. Hence, (again, on my chart) Bar 7 provides the signal for change.

Quote from 8833broc:

At the heart of my question/confusion is that I see the sequence that began at the last 3 bars on 10/6 ending on the first or second bar of 10/7.
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The market has indicated non-dominant movement where you 'see' a completed sequence. In real time, one can only believe they 'see' a completed sequence on Bar 1 if a bias in in place (one that automatically assumes increased Volume on Bar one means dominance). However, now, with the benefit of hindsght, you should be able to 'see' the market forming a Lateral. In other words, if you missed it in real time, nothing prevents you from 'seeing' things correctly at EOD other than your viewpoint of the market.

No benefit comes from describing why someone believed an incorrect thing to be true. The benefit comes from learning how to spot the correct thing sooner.

Those examples of different types of laterals, I posted some time ago, show Left to Right Price Movement on decreasing Volume. Clearly, the market has shown us the same thing here.

Lastly, our sequences began on the previous day - moving lower on increasing Volume. The next day, the market moved left to right (Point Two to Point Three) as the day began. What must come next to complete the traverse?

Quote from 8833broc:

What is a sequence ?
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Seriously?

Quote from 8833broc:

I was under the impression that sequences are contained within the dominate or non dominate tranverses.
More...

This one does. It just starts the day before.

- Spydertrader
 
Quote from Spydertrader:

So ... why not a few of you pull up the rest of the day, and walk through the process as the market moves from Point One to Point Two to point Three.
More...
  8. 10:10 [close of] – non-dom as Price is moving from Pt1 to Pt2
  9. 10:15 [close of] - dom as Price breaks RTL on incr. volume
  10. 10:20 [close of] – non-dom as Price arrives at Pt2 continues toward Pt3
  11. 10:25 [close of] - non-dom as Price continues toward Pt3
  12. 10:30 [close of] – dom, incr. volume confirms Pt3
  13. 10:35 [close of] – dom as Price moves in dom direction intrabar on decreasing volume creating VE and Jokari Window signal for change, and then closing inside the prev. bar while moving in non-dom direction
  14. 10:40 [close of] – non-dom as Price continues toward Pt2 of down traverse
  15. 10:45 [close of] – non-dom, increasing red volume comes from Spike Bar (one of the three cases where increasing volume can be found when Price is moving in non-dom direction)
  16. 10:50 [close of] – non-dom creating SYM following Pace increase on prev. Bar
  17. 10:55 [close of] – dom as Price breaks RTL on incr. Volume, creating R\/R
  18. 11:00 [close of] – non-dom as incr. Volume comes from Formation FBO
  19. 11:05 [close of] - non-dom creating SYM following Pace increase on prev. Bar
  20. 11:10 [close of] – non-dom as incr. Volume comes from Lateral Movement FBO
  21. 11:15 [close of] – non-dom as incr. Volume comes from Lateral Movement FBO
  22. 11:20 [close of] - non-dom, moving in dom direction on decr. Volume
  23. 11:25 [close of] – dom, confirming Pt3, as increasing Volume does not come from one of the three cases. Permision to seek change exists.
  24. 11:30 [close of] - non-dom, decr. black Volume in down trend
  25. 11:35 [close of] - non-dom, decr. black Volume in down trend, creating Lateral Movement
  26. 11:40 [close of] – non-dom as price breaks out of Lateral movement on decr. Volume and closes inside previous bar
  27. 11:45 [close of] - dom, as incr. Volume coming in after Lateral BO bar, incr. Volume which is not one of the three cases. Price is moving towards Pt2
  28. 11:50 [close of] - dom, as price continues to move towards Pt2, no permission to seek change, and therefore no peak volume on that bar
  29. 11:55 [close of] – non-dom as Price begins to move towards Pt3
  30. 12:00 [close of] – non-dom as incr. Volume comes from SYM BO
  31. 12:05 [close of] - non-dom as no signal for change existed on 11:50 [close of] bar. Price continues to move towards Pt3
  32. 12:10 [close of] - non-dom creating FBP
  33. 12:15 [close of] – non-dom creating Lateral Formation
  34. 12:20 [close of] - dom, confirms Pt3. Return to dominance takes place inside the Lateral as incr. volume comes from a bar which is not Formation FBO. The price did not leave the Formation.
  35. 12:25 [close of] – non-dom, as price tries to BO the Formation, fails to do so creating signals for change and closing back inside Formation.
  36. 12:30 [close of] - non-dom, as incr. volume comes from Lateral FBO
  37. 12:35 [close of] – non-dom creating SYM
  38. 12:40 [close of] - non-dom, as incr. volume comes from SYM BO
  39. 12:45 [close of] – non-dom creating SYM
  40. 12:50 [close of] - non-dom, as incr. volume comes from SYM BO
  41. 12:55 [close of] – non-dom creating SYM
  42. 13:00 [close of] – non-dom creating Lateral Formation
    [/list=1]
 

Attachments

  • 43 – 13:05 [close of] - non-dom with Price closing inside Formation
  • 44 – 13:10 [close of] - non-dom as incr. Volume comes from lateral BO
  • 45 – 13:15 [close of] – non-dom as trend did not change, decr. volume on a Bar following Lateral BO
  • 46 – 13:20 [close of] – dom with price transitioning to dom red before transitioning to non-dom red after reaching Pt2
  • 47 – 13:25 [close of] - dom
  • 48 – 13:30 [close of] - dom, no permission to seek change as sequence is not completed
  • 49 – 13:35 [close of] - non-dom forming SYM
  • 50 – 13:40 [close of] - non-dom
  • 51 – 13:45 [close of] - non-dom as Price moves in dominant direction on decr. Volume
  • 52 – 13:50 [close of] - dom with incr. Volume confirming Pt3
  • 53 – 13:55 [close of] - dom with Jokari Window signal for change
  • 54 – 14:00 [close of] - non-dom as Price moving towards Pt2
  • 55 – 14:05 [close of] - non-dom creating Lateral Movement
  • 56 – 14:10 [close of] - non-dom forming SYM
  • 57 – 14:15 [close of] - ?
  • 58 – 14:20 [close of] – dom creating B\/B
  • 59 – 14:25 [close of] – non-dom
  • 60 – 14:30 [close of] – non-dom
  • 61 – 14:35 [close of] – dom as Price breaks RTL and closes back inside Lateral creating Jokari Window signal for change
  • 62 – 14:40 [close of] non-dom as Price resides inside LATERAL TRAVERSE
  • 63 – 14:45 [close of] non-dom as Price resides inside LATERAL TRAVERSE
  • 64 – 14:50 [close of] non-dom as Price resides inside LATERAL TRAVERSE
  • 65 – 14:55 [close of] non-dom as Price resides inside LATERAL TRAVERSE
  • 66 – 15:00 [close of] non-dom as Price resides inside LATERAL TRAVERSE
  • 67 – 15:05 [close of] non-dom as Price resides inside LATERAL TRAVERSE
  • 68 – 15:10 [close of] non-dom as Price resides inside LATERAL TRAVERSE
  • 69 – 15:15 [close of] non-dom as Price resides inside LATERAL TRAVERSE
  • 70 – 15:20 [close of] non-dom as incr. Volume comes from Lateral BO
  • 71 – 15:25 [close of] – dom as red becomes dominant on it’s way to Pt2
  • 72 – 15:30 [close of] – non-dom
  • 73 – 15:35 [close of] – non-dom creating Lateral Retrace while Price is moveing from Pt2 to Pt3
  • 74 – 15:40 [close of] – non-dom
  • 75 – 15:45 [close of] – non-dom as incr. Volume comes from Lateral BO
  • 76 – 15:50 [close of] – dom confirming Pt3 and completing the sequence
  • 77 – 15:55 [close of] – non-dom
  • 78 – 16:00 [close of] - dom
  • 79 – 16:05 [close of] – non-dom
  • 80 – 16:10 [close of] – non-dom
  • 81 – 16:15 [close of] – non-dom
 

Attachments

Quote from romanus:


[12]10:30 [close of] – dom, incr. volume confirms Pt3
[13]10:35 [close of] – dom as Price moves in dom direction intrabar on decreasing volume creating VE and Jokari Window signal for change, and then closing inside the prev. bar while moving in non-dom direction
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I am still stuck on bar 12 & 13. I view bar 12 as unknown (coming out of lateral I posted about in the am) so I don't have dominance established to take the change signal on bar 13
 
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