it is as impossible for an individual to acquire personal property without society.

BSAM · Sep 6, 2012

Quote from Free Thinker:

is beachfront property valuable in somolia? think about it.

No.
And, pretty soon, it won't be in the USA, at the rate we are going.
So, what's your point?

PiggyBank · Sep 6, 2012

Quote from Free Thinker:

wtf. you got that wrong.

I definitely didn't. What don't you understand, property, OTHER THAN what is produced by his own hands, he owes a portion of. It is plainly written.

Free Thinker · Sep 6, 2012

Quote from BSAM:

No.
And, pretty soon, it won't be in the USA, at the rate we are going.
So, what's your point?

think just a little bit. it is the safety and security and infrastructure that society builds that make it valuable.

BSAM · Sep 6, 2012

Quote from Free Thinker:

think just a little bit. it is the safety and security and infrastructure that society builds that make it valuable.

Yeah, I know what you're trying to say.

So, are you also saying that the policies and tactics of the Democrats are further ensuring our security and property rights?

peilthetraveler · Sep 6, 2012

Quote from Free Thinker:

in the you republican "you didnt build it" canard something to consider:

Thomas Pain:

"Personal property is the effect of society; and it is as impossible
for an individual to acquire personal property without the aid of
society, as it is for him to make land originally.

Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a
continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot
be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all
cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained.
All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's
own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes
on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part
of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came."

So what you are saying, is that if i lived on an island and there was nobody around, and then I went around the island gathered materials and built a house, I didnt acquire that house? If I made my own clothes from the plants on the island, do I still not own those clothes? If those items are not my personal property, whose personal property is it? And what about my food. If i go fishing, isnt that fish mine? As in MY personal property? There is nobody to say it isnt, right?

tomdavis · Sep 6, 2012

Quote from Free Thinker:

in the you republican "you didnt build it" canard something to consider:

Thomas Pain:

"Personal property is the effect of society; and it is as impossible
for an individual to acquire personal property without the aid of
society, as it is for him to make land originally.

Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a
continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot
be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all
cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained.
All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's
own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes
on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part
of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came."

Thomas Paine's "Agrarian Justice" was an interesting piece of work in that it was more specific than many of his other papers. He proposed an individual/societal relationship that wasn't an all-or-nothing proposition. Paine felt that society contributed a measurable amount to an individual's success and therefore an individual owed a specific percentage in return. This was a topic that he often touched upon, but was rarely so specific as he was in this soliloquy. (I refer to it as such, because it's often unclear as to whom Paine was speaking, and it was proposed that his writing style was fashioned after the dramatic device that was so prevalent during his time.)

Irrespective of style, the question becomes not one of "with-or-without," but rather of "how much?"

Paine suggests that individuals, upon their death, pay 10% (one tenth of accumulated wealth) to give back to society that which society had contributed.

Personally, I don't mind paying taxes that reflect what society contributes to my success. Ten percent of my accumulated wealth payable upon my death sounds about right.

mrbill · Sep 6, 2012

Quote from CaptainObvious:

You don't own anything you have to pay taxes on, and yes, the g-man can kick down your door anytime he likes, and take whatever he likes.
That said, the repubs were wrong to take the presidents words out of context. We all know what he meant.

Of course they did, and thanks for saying that. It is kind of a DUH moment, so obvious.

We at least have courts to keep others from taking our property away. I can attest tot that form instances over they years.

mrbill · Sep 6, 2012

Quote from peilthetraveler:

So what you are saying, is that if i lived on an island and there was nobody around, and then I went around the island gathered materials and built a house, I didnt acquire that house? If I made my own clothes from the plants on the island, do I still not own those clothes? If those items are not my personal property, whose personal property is it? And what about my food. If i go fishing, isnt that fish mine? As in MY personal property? There is nobody to say it isnt, right?

What is being said, is that no matter what you did to build the house on some island, that someone could come along and take it from you much easier if there were no society or infrastructure and laws in place. Call the cops, go to court, can't do that if there is no Society, right?

peilthetraveler · Sep 6, 2012

Quote from mrbill:

What is being said, is that no matter what you did to build the house on some island, that someone could come along and take it from you much easier if there were no society or infrastructure and laws in place. Call the cops, go to court, can't do that if there is no Society, right?

The title says its impossible for an individual to acquire personal property without society...so how could someone "acquire" (steal) my personal property if there is no society. I thought it was "impossible".

Mav88 · Sep 6, 2012

Quote from Free Thinker:

in the you republican "you didnt build it" canard something to consider:

Thomas Pain:

"Personal property is the effect of society; and it is as impossible
for an individual to acquire personal property without the aid of
society, as it is for him to make land originally.

Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a
continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot
be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all
cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained.
All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's
own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes
on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part
of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came."

I am going to try to be polite... but your handle just invites ridicule.

What a grand circular argument you have there. Just what is society without productive individuals? who gives 'society' its own value? Paine is wrong in the absolute sense, personal property is a just a legal label. If I had my own planet and grew my food, it would be just as much my 'personal property' for my own purposes as if I lived in manhatten. If I built a house it would also be just as valuable to me. Rich is an ill defined term, paine pretends he can build arguments around it. Things of intrinsic value like land are not made valuable by society, and if you give me an island I may not very well care if the rest of you exist

This big god you all worship, an entity called government that provides all, except you never define how that mechanism called collectivism really creates societal value, mostly it creates regulation and order at best (the founding fathers vision), but actually destroys value many times like with Solyndra. All societal value flows from the individual up, it's so elementary and fundamental that its beyond your comprehension. Society is nothing without the outstanding individuals who did in fact 'build it'. Even roads are built and funded by creative individuals. Government is the do-nothing middleman that takes the credit at the end (only when it goes right) , just like Obama does, who has done nothing himself.

Here's one for you. Organized wars are impossible without government.