israeli occupation

Bitstream your blind support of palestinans neglects the role that palestinians themselves played in their suffering. palestinians only have themselves to blame for their present suffering. i supported the palestinian cause vehemently a few yrs back before arafat spurned the most generous deal ever given by an occupier to an occupied territory.

A little history

After oslo accord where signed and negotiations continued there was relative peace in between israeli and palestinians. palestinians prospered as trade links beetween the two countries grew.

Fast forward to camp david in the year 2000. Barak made what i believe will probably be the most generous peace offer ive ever seen made by any occupier to an occupied territory anytime in the history of the middle east. 90% of the west bank, 100% of gaza, joint custodianship over jerusalem. and a limited right of return for palestinian refugees. probably 70-80% of the palestinain demands were met under that offer and constituted a huge sacrifice for the israeli people for peace. Had that offer been accepted i believe that barak like rabin would most likely assasinated by an extremist israeli.

barak offered joint custodianship over some parts of jerusalem and soverign palestinian rule over the majority of jerusalem, palestinians wanted COMPLETE soveringty completely disregarding the fact that in order to make a peace offer palatable to the israelis they had to at least have some form of control over jerusalem even if it was joint. Israelis compromised, palestinians didnt even budge. knowing that both sides could not return without control over jerusalem barak offered the best thing he could, joint control over the most sensitive areas to israel and the concession of the rest.

Barak offered palestinians a viable, complete palestian state with control or joint control over practically 90% of the land demanded. With strong economic links already forged by trading buisnesses in the years after oslo, palestinians could take their mind off war and onto economic prosperity. Arafat didnt even make a counter offer.

Palestinians spurned the offer and decided on the path of war knowing full well that israelis would respond in kind and crush their people.
 
aus_SPIder I must take this point up with you: are you saying that whenever persons are the target of indiscriminate, ongoing, violence that they bring it on themselves? Does that make the offender immune from any judgement?

Do you have any opinion of Israel's ongoing violence against civillans or do we not have the freedom to ask that question (or we will be branded anti-semites). If you asked the average citizen there what they thought, how many are brainwashed racists?

Oh well, enjojy beating your wife - she brings that kind of thing on by herself. How dare anyone say that you don't have the right to control your own home.
 
I like money/biz/commerce because it does not discriminate.

If the price is right, anyone can sit down at a table and break bread.

If the price (quality of education) is right, anyone can send their kids to school with others' kids, even if it wouldn't have been thought possible in another context.

If the price is right, people can at least pretend to treat each other with respect, handle any differences logically, and maybe even develop true friendships and rock solid relationships born out of loyalty.

The business world leads the way in resolving conflict.

It always has, and always will.

I'll have anyone from any race, any ethnicity, any religion, ANYONE, over to my house for dinner, so long as the price is right.

I may make serious money, and gain allies.

Why would anyone want to foreclose those kind of opportunities?

THE KEY TO RESOLVING WORLD STRIFE ISN'T WELFARE, OR FOREIGN AID, BUT PROVIDING TRUE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL.
 
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aus_SPIder I must take this point up with you: are you saying that whenever persons are the target of indiscriminate, ongoing, violence that they bring it on themselves?
I don't think that's what he said. He said "palestinians only have themselves to blame for their present suffering". That does not mean that everyone has only oneself to blame but palestinians do. Don't they teach you to read in Toronto anymore?

Do you have any opinion of Israel's ongoing violence against civillans or do we not have the freedom to ask that question (or we will be branded anti-semites).
Israel does not attack civilians, Israel drops warning leaflets before entering civilian territory. Israel's enemies do deliberately, indiscriminately and savagely attack Israeli civilians though. Civilians suffer during wars, Israel does not start wars, arabs and palestinians start wars against Israel. Palestinians, not Israel want to drive a neighboring nation into the sea and wipe it off the map.
 
Give me one example of what the Palestinians have done to offer a peaceful solution to the problem?

Isreal withdraws, the violence increases and not only that, the Palestinians themselves start killing their own civilians.

They caren't capable as a society of living on a peaceful world. THey need babysitters.


Quote from TorontoTrader2:

aus_SPIder I must take this point up with you: are you saying that whenever persons are the target of indiscriminate, ongoing, violence that they bring it on themselves? Does that make the offender immune from any judgement?

Do you have any opinion of Israel's ongoing violence against civillans or do we not have the freedom to ask that question (or we will be branded anti-semites). If you asked the average citizen there what they thought, how many are brainwashed racists?

Oh well, enjojy beating your wife - she brings that kind of thing on by herself. How dare anyone say that you don't have the right to control your own home.
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Quote from aus_SPIder:




palestinians only have themselves to blame for their present suffering.


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You sound like Hitler.

Let me guess, you're another ashke-NAZI non-JEW.
 
Quote from TorontoTrader2:

aus_SPIder I must take this point up with you: are you saying that whenever persons are the target of indiscriminate, ongoing, violence that they bring it on themselves? Does that make the offender immune from any judgement?
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first of all u take me out of context. Second of all palestinians are just as responsible as israelis for the violence and slaughter in the mid-east. to suggest that any one party is somehow more "right" in their violence than another brings about dangerous consequences. Its the same ideas which extremists use to brainwash their own people. Somehow their brand of violence is inherently "right". Palestinians are as much the recipents of "indiscriminate, ongoing, violence" as they are perpetrators. There brand of violence is no better than that of the israelis.

The reason why i said palestinians are to blame for their present suffering is that they spurned a peace offer in 2000 which basically met all their demands at the expense of the israeli side. Dont forget that in all those negotiations israel could have turned around and just re-occupied the west bank. Instead barak was willing to negotiate over jerusalem and practically the entire west bank and had already offered Gaza. America and Israel were willing to provide aide and political support for a new palestinian state with arafat as the leader. The stage was set in 2000 for a new palestinian state free of violence with a land area approximately 95-96% of the west bank, 100% of gaza and a capital in jerusalem on the temple mount.

Arafat walked away without a single counter offer. u cant blame them afterwards for thinking that palestinians were not serious about peace.

What you need to understand is that there is a PR war being conducted by both sides to win support. You cannot completely blame isreal for all of palestine's problems, alot of it is the result of internal corruption, weakness and not taking the right chances when they arose such as in camp david 2000 and taba.

Everyone somehow expects israel to turn the other cheek from attacks and give land back to the palestinians, give them finanical support and aide and somehow still maintain civil order in their own country. Israel is not a saint. It cant happen, u need to understand that if israel suddenly did that theyd probably find themselves in the middle of a civil war, getting settlers out of gaza was tough, imagine getting settlers out of most of the west bank. Thered be an internal uprising.

IF you want to make analogys regarding marriages its like your spouse and yourself yelling at each other. Youve already agreed that there must be a divorce. You have offered her the kids (jerusalem), the parts of the house that are hers (West bank, gaza), and financial support so that she can get back on her feet again (aide). You know full well that you are the much stronger party and can kick her out of the house at will, yet you offer these things for peace. She spurns you offer saying that your entire house is hers, the kids are hers and your entire income stream is hers.
 
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