Islam doesn't belong in a civilized country

[OddTrader]

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is not to work on Sundays, but he cured a sick person on Sunday.

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to keep distance from sinners, but he walked and ate with them.

Jesus was considered to be barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to hate and punish the enemies, but he loved them with agape-love.

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to preach only inside church buildings - clean and shine, but he preached in the markets and villages, to the poor.

(Who are closer to our creator God and his creatures like fresh air, flowers, trees, birds, sun-lights, flowing waters, grasses, soils, etc.? And who keep themselves away from the nature by separating with expensive walls and concrete floors?)

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to stone an adultery woman to death, but he set her free.

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to ... ...

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to ... ...


LOL

 

[stu]

You can repeat your answer, but it remains a non-answer.

Your refusal to understand or acknowledge the answer does not make it a non answer

Yes I am objective. I pointed out that the little good that there is in the Koran is nullified by its clear instructions to harm others. And I also pointed out that the Bible highlights and magnifies Jesus Christ, who teaches not to harm others as the Koran does, but to do good to them.

The Bible says nice things and the Koran says nice things.
The Bible says nasty things and the Koran says nasty things.
The Bible contradicts itself and the Koran contradicts itself.

You recognize only nice things in the Bible and only nasty things in the Koran.
That's you not being objective.

The ideals of liberty, justice for all and the pursuit of happiness are all deeply rooted in Judaeo-Christian values (not Koranic values which promote shariah law and the rule of Islam over others) Alexis de Tocqueville had the honesty to admit as much in his assessment of the nation's success.

Not to be picky but Alexis de Tocqueville could not have referred to Judeo-Christian values in terms of ethics or of the American ideals. The term Judeo-Christian as it refers to values comes from the time of Orwell who coined the phrase in the 1930's. Before that it was used in effort to convert Jews to Christianity, and previous to that it was generally a pejorative expression.

Alexis de Tocqueville at the same time articulated the Tyranny of the Majority which, if he was saying Christianity was deeply woven into the fabric of America, then he was also pointing out the dangers in that situation.

By the way, you can't objectively talk of Judeo-Christian religion on this topic without at least acknowledging or recognizing the Abrahamic concept of Islamic-Judeo-Christian also being promoted.


It is a fact that in Western democracies generally and specifically, the ideals of liberty, justice for all and the pursuit of happiness has been achieved wherever it has because as in America particularly, God has not been placed above the secular democratic law of the land.
The opposite being true where oppression, iniquity and misery dominate in lands wherever the God idea; Islamic, Christian or whatever, is used as the formal rule of law.

 

[Maverick1]

"... In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power.

America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great ..."

- Alexis de Tocqueville, "Democracy in America"

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/onug/detocq.html

 

[Sig]

"... In the United States, the influence of religion is not confined to the manners, but it extends to the intelligence of the people...

Christianity, therefore, reigns without obstacle, by universal consent...

I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power.

America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great ..."

- Alexis de Tocqueville, "Democracy in America"

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/onug/detocq.html

So fabricating statistics to further your goal of excluding others based on their religion is your definition of "good"? Still waiting for your explanation or apology on that one, we haven't forgotten. Remember Maverick, what would your Jesus do?

 

[CBC]

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is not to work on Sundays, but he cured a sick person on Sunday.

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to keep distance from sinners, but he walked and ate with them.

Jesus was considered to be barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to hate and punish the enemies, but he loved them with agape-love.

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to preach only inside church buildings - clean and shine, but he preached in the markets and villages, to the poor.

(Who are closer to our creator God and his creatures like fresh air, flowers, trees, birds, sun-lights, flowing waters, grasses, soils, etc.? And who keep themselves away from the nature by separating with expensive walls and concrete floors?)

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to stone an adultery woman to death, but he set her free.

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to ... ...

Jesus was considered barbaric, when the norm/law of his era is to ... ...


LOL

Matt 19:8....

"Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.""

The laws regarding what you speak about were setup to deal with the people at that current point in time and during Israels kingdom until Jesus came . Jesus came to teach the people to do good and practice mercy, a good way.

 

[OddTrader]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-Letter_Christian

 

[Sig]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-Letter_Christian

This movement was essentially formed in response to the CBCs and Mavericks of the world, who use their religion to support discriminating, excluding, and harming others. Both of them would do well to give the movement a look. We've got Maverick here fabricating statistics, really outright lying, to make a political point and wrapping that up in the words of Jesus, can't get much further from the guy's teaching than that.

 

[murray t turtle]

For sure, any religion that calls for stoning your son for being stubborn and rebellious should be banned in any civilized country. For example, look at this passage:

"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

Absolutely barbaric, isn't it?

Oh, wait a minute, I'm quoting Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Sorry, wrong holy book. How inconvenient. I guess we're going to have to say this religion doesn't belong in a civilized country as well if we're not complete hypocrites, aren't we?

%%
What problems , Sig,do you have with that??/LOL The fact that women don't have to throw stones , or capital punishment??Thanks for accurate quote!!

 

[OddTrader]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_democracy

Indices of democracy in Muslim countries

There are several non-governmental organizations that publish and maintain indices of freedom in the world, according to their own various definitions of the term, and rank countries as being free, partly free, or unfree using various measures of freedom, including political rights, economic rights, freedom of the press and civil liberties.

The following lists Muslim-majority countries and shows the scores given by two frequently used indices: Freedom in the World (2013) by the US-based Freedom House and the 2012 Democracy Index by the Economist Intelligence Unit. These indices are frequently used in Western media, but have attracted some criticism and may not reflect recent changes.

As of 2012, Indonesia is the only Muslim-majority nation acknowledged as fully democratic by both Freedom House and Economist democracy indexes.

Key: * - Electoral democracies ‡ - Disputed territory (according to Freedom House)

Location Democracy Index Score Democracy Index Rank Democracy Index Category Freedom in the World Status Type of government Religion and State

Afghanistan 2.48 152 Authoritarian regime Not free Islamic republic, presidential system Islamic state

imo, one possibility would be the world should concentrate much more in some (advanced) Islamic countries that have shown certain degree of proven democracy components.

Such as Turkey (Illiberal democracy), Pakistan (Illiberal democracy), Iraq (Illiberal democracy), Egypt (Illiberal democracy), Jordan (Illiberal democracy), Malaysia (Flawed democracy), Indonesia (Flawed democracy), Bangladesh (Illiberal democracy), etc.

Investing, providing and helping these target Islamic countries with extremely heavy investments and resources, financially, physically, academically, etc.etc.

After many years these target Islamic countries would become mature in their democratic systems. With proven strong economic growth. Then ask them in turn to invest and help some other willing Islamic countries to become their followers.

During the process, many other Islamic countries should send their talented staff to these 1st round targeted countries in order to learn their success experience. While introduce their knowledge and skills learned meanwhile to their home/native countries for study and reference.

It should be a worldwide unified effort to show off their will and power with a clear and concrete direction that could firmly change/upgrade the whole world in long run with high certainty.

LOL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan

Immigrants and refugees

Jordan was home to 2,117,361 Palestinians in 2015, most of them Jordanian citizens.[186] The first wave of Palestinian refugees arrived during the 1948 Arab Israeli war and peaked in the 1967 Six Day War and the 1990 Gulf War. In the past, Jordan had given many Palestinian refugees citizenship, however recently Jordanian citizenship is given only in rare cases. 370,000 of these Palestinians live in UNRWA refugee camps.[186] Following the capture of the West Bank by Israel in 1967, Jordan revoked the citizenship of thousands of Palestinians to thwart any attempt to permanently resettle from the West Bank to Jordan. West Bank Palestinians with family in Jordan or Jordanian citizenship were issued yellow cards guaranteeing them all the rights of Jordanian citizenship if requested.[187]

While some 700,000–1,000,000 Iraqis came to Jordan following the Iraq War in 2003, most have returned.[188] Many Iraqi Christians (Assyrians/Chaldeans) however settled temporarily or permanently in Jordan.[189] Immigrants also include 15,000 Lebanese who arrived following the 2006 Lebanon War.[190] Since 2010, over 1.4 million Syrian refugees have fled to Jordan to escape the violence in Syria.[13] The kingdom has continued to demonstrate hospitality, despite the substantial strain the flux of Syrian refugees places on the country. The effects are largely affecting Jordanian communities, as the vast majority of Syrian refugees do not live in camps. The refugee crisis effects include competition for job opportunities, water resources and other state provided services, along with the strain on the national infrastructure.[15]

In 2007, Assyrian Christians accounted for up to 150,000 persons, most are Eastern Aramaic speaking refugees from Iraq.[191] Kurds number some 30,000 people, and like the Assyrians, many are refugees from Iraq, Iran and Turkey.[192] Descendants of Armenians that sought refuge in the Levant during the 1915 Armenian Genocide number approximately 5,000 persons, mainly residing in Amman.[193] A small number of ethnic Mandeans also reside in Jordan, again mainly refugees from Iraq.[194] Around 12,000 Iraqi Christians have sought refuge in Jordan after the Islamic State took the city of Mosul in 2014.[195] Several thousand Libyans, Yemenis and Sudanese have also sought asylum in Jordan to escape instability and violence in their respective countries.[15] The 2015 Jordanian census recorded that there are 1,265,000 Syrians, 636,270 Egyptians, 634,182 Palestinians, 130,911 Iraqis, 31,163 Yemenis, 22,700 Libyans and 197,385 from other nationalities residing in the country.[13]

There are around 1.2 million illegal and some 500,000 legal migrant workers in the kingdom.[196] Thousands of foreign women, mostly from Greater Middle East and Eastern Europe, work in nightclubs, hotels and bars across the kingdom.[197][198][199] American and European expatriate communities are concentrated in the capital, as the city is home to many international organizations and diplomatic missions.[161]

An aerial view of a portion of the Zaatari refugee camp which only contains a population of 80,000 Syrian refugees.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/An_Aerial_View_of_the_Za'atri_Refugee_Camp.jpg

 

[murray t turtle]

I might be missing something, as I absolutely do not understand your point of view.
From the little I know, people in the know spend decades studying the Bible ( PhD, post docs, etc),
and those people are very cautious when "interpreting" the Bible.

For one : "the Bible says love your enemy": is that's all?
What about some cases, where the "enemy" has friends much more 'powerful' than yours,
and you missed the chance to make peace, and down the road one of your enemy's friends is the
only one that can solve your problem?

I believe that people just pick and choose what they want from the Bible.
If they were honest, they'd just say that they are doing so.

%%
Excellent points, Small Stops; note what God did to the king of Egypt in the Red Sea. The Lord of Angel Armies drowned the king of Egypt + drowned his hellish hosts, noted in many places in the Bible. About 1 million muzzies in the world ,about 100 million of them are Christian-Jew hating fanatics.