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Islam doesn't belong in a civilized country
- Thread starter Ditch
- Start date
Your answer was a non-answer, a deflection. The scope of the question is Islam and the Koran:
If the Koran says to love our enemies (your claim), why does it recommend 100 lashes for the adulterer, who is hardly anyone's enemy?
...and again the answer is Islam and the Koran is every bit as nasty as Christianity and the Bible have been, can be and often are.
If the Bible(New Testament) says to love your enemy, why does it threaten to slay an apostate, who is hardly an enemy?
So according to you, it is pragmatic to "repel evil with good" (Koran) but not pragmatic to be "doing good" to one's enemies (Bible)? Is this objective?
Pretty much both the same thing in practice.
It is neither the Bible or the Koran which are objective. They both threaten death and promise heaven and both are equally derisory.
I don't.And you justify this violence too, sadly.
Both the Bible and the Koran do and you defend the Bible and have nothing to say against its violent utterances but everything to say against the Koran.
Are you objective!?
You confuse and conflate the righteous judgment of God that takes place in the next life (for the enemies of love, peace and righteousness) with how we are to treat our neighbor in this life.
It is both the Bible and the Koran which conflate those things. I do not.
They both give excuse for vile acts of murder which depend on the extreme beliefs of those who have faith in either book as to whether they are carried out in this life or not.
I pray America wakes up before it's too late.
Fortunately other people did better than pray and America woke up over 200 years ago to put secular democratic law above that of any God.
Pew Research???
Factcheck.org? The Annenberg Foundation?
https://politicalvelcraft.org/2012/...e-british-annenberg-brain-washing-foundation/
Factcheck.org? The Annenberg Foundation?
https://politicalvelcraft.org/2012/...e-british-annenberg-brain-washing-foundation/
OK, let's forget the site for now.
" Maverick1 said:
The pittance that the Koran gives with one hand, it takes away with the other, repelling evil with evil and thereby nullifying whatever little good there is in its message. And the outworking of this reality is all to clear: 25% of muslims in America polled by the Pew Research Center say that violence against Americans can be justified as the global jihad."
Are you sure the information from Pew Research, which usually provide credible research?
Where is your source about Pew Research? I just cannot find that.
No politics here.
PS: Anyway, so long, my friend!
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...and again the answer is Islam and the Koran is every bit as nasty as Christianity and the Bible have been, can be and often are.
You can repeat your answer, but it remains a non-answer.
If the Bible(New Testament) says to love your enemy, why does it threaten to slay an apostate, who is hardly an enemy?
See my prior post, already answered this.
Pretty much both the same thing in practice.
So before the Bible is not pragmatic, and now it is? Why should anyone believe what you say when you change your tune to suit your argument?
It is neither the Bible or the Koran which are objective. They both threaten death and promise heaven and both are equally derisory.
See my prior post.
I don't.
Both the Bible and the Koran do and you defend the Bible and have nothing to say against its violent utterances but everything to say against the Koran.
Are you objective!?
Yes I am objective. I pointed out that the little good that there is in the Koran is nullified by its clear instructions to harm others. And I also pointed out that the Bible highlights and magnifies Jesus Christ, who teaches not to harm others as the Koran does, but to do good to them.
It is both the Bible and the Koran which conflate those things. I do not. They both give excuse for vile acts of murder which depend on the extreme beliefs of those who have faith in either book as to whether they are carried out in this life or not.
You do conflate and confuse those things. See post #82.
Fortunately other people did better than pray and America woke up over 200 years ago to put secular democratic law above that of any God.
The ideals of liberty, justice for all and the pursuit of happiness are all deeply rooted in Judaeo-Christian values (not Koranic values which promote shariah law and the rule of Islam over others) Alexis de Tocqueville had the honesty to admit as much in his assessment of the nation's success.
It in no way changes the fact that verses just as barbaric as the koran exist in your bible. You may interpret your bible differently than others, just as many Muslim's most certainly interpret their Koran in a much less hostile way than you do. That doesn't change the fact that barbaric verses exist in both and who are you to judge and call every adherent to that religion "uncivilized" as a result? I'll take your nonanswer as an affirmative, you agree that there are verses just as appalling in your bible as the Koran, you're just saying we should ignore yours and exclude Muslims because of theirs. Got it
It is not a question of interpretation, because the teaching needs none. When Christ says "love your enemies, do good to them", no interpretation is needed to know that this nullifies anything to the contrary. Likewise, Moses himself by whom the laws were given that you rail against, says to listen to Christ and not to him (post #82) And you say?
You in no way answered my questions about if we should judge a human on that human's actual beliefs and practices, not the barbaric things that are written in their holy book or practiced by the most extreme members of their religion? The stereotyping you are doing is most emphatically NOT what your Jesus would do. In fact, I kind of wish the whole thing was true so I could see people like you get the big boot into hell for the evil you're propagating on others in the name of your religion. How can you fail to see how much the Jesus that you quote in this very thread would hate your actions of advocating for splitting up families simply because they are Muslim, denying travel to the U.S. for medical treatment that would save a baby's life simply because they are Muslim, allowing refugees to escape threats against their lives (in many cases because they're not considered good enough Muslims) just because they're Muslims. You call that "turning the other cheek"!
Who says I advocate for splitting up families, or denying medical treatment? You do not know Jesus. Had you known Him, you would not judge me unfairly, because you would have taken to heart his instruction to not judge your neighbor. Did you know that many churches are caring for the weakest among the refugees as we speak in the name of Jesus? Or do you choose to ignore that?
I'm guessing you're saying the pure evil that your god does in the old testament is all OK because the "New Covenant" is better/superior to the old? So you admit that the god you worship once did horrible, barbaric, and under all current moral standards evil things, but he's still not only OK but perfect, cause we're under a new contract? I understand, you don't want to see the absurdity in that so you wave your hands around with a bunch of this "new covenant" mumbo jumbo and try to ignore it in hopes it will go away. It's your prerogative to remain ignorant. But again, as Jesus said, "You hypocrite!" Don't go around calling someone "uncivilized" because you cherry picked a verse from their holy book no more crazy than many in yours.
The law of Moses was given at a time as a condescension to man, who was for all intents and purposes, barbaric. Mankind was not ready, some 3,700 years ago, to receive the teaching of Christ. So God put up with man's lack of wisdom and readiness by providing a way of life for His people that would minimize their self-inflicted damage. For example, when someone gouged the eye of another, the law taught that it was "an eye for an eye" so that the whole village would not descend into chaos and death, as it was then prone to. It was a concession to man's base nature, because man was not ready yet for the truth of God's revelation in Christ. God the Father's true nature is revealed fully and finally in Jesus Christ. When He says "You have heard "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", but I say, love your enemies...", that is the voice of God speaking. No one else reveals God as Christ does: whoever has seen Christ has seen God. So when you see Him not stoning the adulterous woman, you see who God really is. When you see Him forgiving Zacchaeus the tax collector, you see who God really is. When you see Him receiving worship from the former prostitute, you see who God really is.
But on the other hand, when you see Muhammad commanding muslims to kill in the name of Allah, you are not seeing the face of God.
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I think that the main mistake Stu is making is assuming that the Bible and the Koran are basically the same or similar. Stu assumes that because both are said to be religious books, then it means their core beliefs , assumptions and philosphy of life are the same. Because they both have God in it, it means the qualities of the God in the Bible and the qualities of God in the Koran are the same. Just in passing, the "s;a..t?a:n//i..cc" Bible does also have someone they call God in their "religious" book : obviously, one would suspect that the God of the Bible is a bit different from the God of the "s./a..t!!a???n///i??s///t".
Stu does not understand the central role of forgiveness of sin - aka saving the sinner - is a core of the Bible. That does not mean that the Bible is permissive ( The Deluge total destruction, Sodom &Gomor destructions, etc).
Stu : do ask questions on the Bible specifically. The Koran ( and the hadiths) has its own specificities.
Stu does not understand the central role of forgiveness of sin - aka saving the sinner - is a core of the Bible. That does not mean that the Bible is permissive ( The Deluge total destruction, Sodom &Gomor destructions, etc).
Stu : do ask questions on the Bible specifically. The Koran ( and the hadiths) has its own specificities.
Note to Maverick, when you start saying it's fine to bash your son's head in with a rock because he disobeys you because "man wasn't ready" to be civil you've lost your argument! And that's a heck of a lot of interpreting for someone who doesn't "interpret".It is not a question of interpretation, because the teaching needs none. When Christ says "love your enemies, do good to them", no interpretation is needed to know that this nullifies anything to the contrary. Likewise, Moses himself by whom the laws were given that you rail against, says to listen to Christ and not to him. And you say?
Who says I advocate for splitting up families, or denying medical treatment? You do not know Jesus. Had you known Him, you would not judge me unfairly, because you would have taken to heart his instruction to not judge your neighbor. Did you know that many churches are caring for the weakest among the refugees as we speak in the name of Jesus? Or do you choose to ignore that?
The law of Moses was given at a time as a condescension to man, who was for all intents and purposes, barbaric. Mankind was not ready, some 3,700 years ago, to receive the teaching of Christ. So God put up with man's lack of wisdom and readiness by providing a way of life for His people that would minimize their self-inflicted damage. For example, when someone gouged the eye of another, the law taught that it was "an eye for an eye" so that the whole village would descend into chaos and death. It was a concession to man's base nature, because man was not ready yet for the truth of God's revelation in Christ. God the Father's true nature is revealed fully and finally in Jesus Christ. No one else reveals God as Christ does: whoever has seen Christ has seen God. So when you see Him not stoning the adulterous woman, you see who God really is. When you see Him forgiving Zacchaeus the tax collector, you see who God really is. When you see Him receiving worship from the former prostitute, you see who God really is.
But on the other hand, when you see Muhammad commanding muslims to kill in the name of Allah, you are not seeing the face of God.
You're claiming that "Islam doesn't belong in a civilized country", that's the thread title for pete's sake! So heck yes I'm judging you, both because you're wrong and because I've fully and completely rejected your religion based on my pretty in-depth knowledge of it which clearly exceeds your own, so I'm certainly not bound by it. I have my own moral code that doesn't depend on fear of hell and doesn't believe it is or ever was OK to stone anyone for anything. You are saying Muslim's don't belong in this country based on your personal interpretation of their holy book, while conveniently explaining away the same horrific content of your own with utter nonsense. Inherent in that claim is splitting up families, turning away refugees, and turning away those who need medical treatment, exactly as the travel ban that spawned this thread did. If this is not your position, please, let us all know that you think any travel ban based on religion is a bad thing and Muslims belong in the U.S. as much as anyone else. Anything else and you're a hypocrite, pure and simple.
Pretty simple question for you, what would Jesus do? As far as I know Jesus showed animus of the type you espouse only twice, once against money changers in the temple (Matthew 21:12) and once against a fig tree (Matthew 21:18-19; 20-22 and Mark 11:12-14; 20-25, still trying to figure that one out). I'm guessing that you, on the other hand, supported repealing the Affordable Care Act so we could give the wealthy a tax cut and for all I know you also sneak figs when no one is looking. But what really matters in this conversation is what you advocate regarding Muslims, which would have been abhorrent to the Jesus of your bible.
So what would Jesus do? Probably observe what Maverick advocates for and do the opposite!
And BTW, you lied with your "statistic" about Muslim's wanting to do harm to America, flat out lied. What would Jesus do in that case? Ignore the lie, pretend he didn't do it. Not lie in the first place. Or maybe, just maybe, realize that he had been basing his worldview on a lie and adjust it? Well probably Jesus wouldn't do that last part being perfect and all, but any reasonable human would. Are you a reasonable human Maverick?
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That's one huge problem with so called "Christians" , they do not practice what they preach.
The VERY rare real Catholics I have met, seem to be always very cautious, very balanced for some reasons.
The VERY rare real Catholics I have met, seem to be always very cautious, very balanced for some reasons.
Note to Maverick, when you start saying it's fine to bash your son's head in with a rock because he disobeys you because "man wasn't ready" to be civil you've lost your argument! And that's a heck of a lot of interpreting for someone who doesn't "interpret".
I did not say that it was fine, but rather that it was a concession to the baser instincts of the people who lived 3,700 years ago. Jesus Himself did not think it was fine, otherwise He wouldn't have taught against the Law of Moses! Again, a point which you have chosen to ignore is that Christ is the true revelation of God the Father.
I will pass on the rest of your foaming at the mouth and pray for your soul, that you may come to know the One True God as revealed in Jesus, and find forgiveness and peace in Him.
God Bless.
M1 out