Islam doesn't belong in a civilized country

[Sig]

I did answer your question Mav. See post #53. The answer is, both Bible and Koran are basically saying the same things.

Our Maverick here is more than a bit hypocritical, sadly typical among the religious. I asked him 3 very specific and eminently reasonable questions about specific verses from his bible repeatedly in this thread, even numbered them for him so they were crystal clear, and he not only refused to answer them but insisted on pretending that they hadn't even been asked and diverted to answering more convenient questions no-one had asked. And now here he is complaining you didn't answer his question!
I get it, most of the religious right is willfully ignorant of the barbaric and in some cases pure evil nature of the god described in their holy book. To confront that would require one to either realize that the book is a collection of stories passed down by semi-literate goat herds who lived in a barbaric society and later transcribed by those using the book to run their own barbaric societies, or realize that the god they worship is in many ways pure evil and they may have picked the wrong side. I was brainwashed into the whole fundamentalist thing and know firsthand that it's remarkably hard to actually confront that inconvenient truth, as Maverick is demonstrating for us all here. Thankfully I finally came to the semi-literate goat herder answer, because you know, it's the truth and all.

 

[CBC]

I asked him 3 very specific and eminently reasonable questions about specific verses from his bible repeatedly in this thread,

what were ur question sig? I'l try to answer them.

 

[OddTrader]

" They bought the artwork for US$22,000 "

'In a wealthy American suburb'.So,they feel sorry about Jesus...Money rules.

 

[Sig]

what were ur question sig? I'l try to answer them.

Well thank you. I started in post 33, asked several more times before giving up. They were:
1. Do you or do you not agree that the christian bible has horrifically barbaric guidance, as does the koran?
2. Do you or do you not agree that it's only fair to judge a human on that human's actual beliefs and practices, not the barbaric things that are written in their holy book or practiced by the most extreme members of their religion? Note, you could shorthand this to do you believe in stereotyping or treating humans as individuals?
3. Just out of curiosity, since you sound like an apologist for the religion, how do you possibly explain the verse I listed as being anything other than appallingly barbaric? If you agree that it is, then fair enough.

Note that the verse I listed was Deuteronomy 21:18-21:

"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

My overall point here is not being to dissuade anyone from believing the more palatable parts of their religion. It's to point out that it's enormously hypocritical of any Christian but especially a fundamentalist christian to support discrimination against Muslims because their religion is somehow "uncivilized" by cherry picking Koran verses when it's laughably easy to cherry pick verses just as appalling from the Christian bible. Or to quote Jesus in Matthew 7:5:

"You hypocrite! First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye."

 

[Scataphagos]

OddTrader,

If you had a sister who was caught in adultery in say, Iran or Saudi Arabia, would you rather her be stoned to death/lashed/imprisoned or be forgiven?

Are these two options simply "different"?

Pay attention to the stats between 3:14 and 5:30

In a nutshell... this is why America should keep muslims out of our country.

It's blatantly obvious.

So... why are politicos promoting the muslim invasion? Political agenda... one which requires the destruction of America.

And why do so many citizens support muslim immigration into the US? They're weak-minded and easily brainwashed.

 

[Maverick1]

I did answer your question Mav. See post #53. The answer is, both Bible and Koran are basically saying the same things.

The Bible(New Testament) threatens punishment of death for an apostate who is hardly an enemy.
The Koran threatens punishment of 100 lashes for the adulterer who is hardly an enemy.

Your answer was a non-answer, a deflection. The scope of the question is Islam and the Koran:

If the Koran says to love our enemies (your claim), why does it recommend 100 lashes for the adulterer, who is hardly anyone's enemy?

Bible suggests the naive helplessness of a deer caught in the headlights approach of: "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"...while the Koran recommends something more pragmatic : "Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend".

Luke 6:27-28
27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you."

So according to you, it is pragmatic to "repel evil with good" (Koran) but not pragmatic to be "doing good" to one's enemies (Bible)? Is this objective?

while the Koran recommends something more pragmatic : "Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend".

“The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse – lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment”. Quran 24:2

“Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women – bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way”. Quran 4:15

The pittance that the Koran gives with one hand, it takes away with the other, (and then chops it off) repelling evil with evil and thereby nullifying whatever little good there is in its message. And the outworking of this reality is all to clear: 25% of muslims in America polled by the Pew Research Center say that violence against Americans can be justified as the global jihad.

And you justify this violence too, sadly.

But then of course they both continue within their texts to threaten death, misery and destruction for the same preposterous reasons to those who are hardly anything like an enemy.

You confuse and conflate the righteous judgment of God that takes place in the next life (for the enemies of love, peace and righteousness) with how we are to treat our neighbor in this life. The Bible threatens no one with death, instead it speaks of God's grace towards evil men offered in Jesus Christ, that they would turn from their sins and cease their violence towards their neighbor, the earth and God Himself. If men would turn to God, acknowledge their sin of exalting themselves above Him, and believed in Christ there would be no death, only life and life eternal. The Koran on the other hand, says this:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

I pray America wakes up before it's too late.

 

[Sig]

Your answer was a non-answer, a deflection. The scope of the question is Islam and the Koran:

If the Koran says to love our enemies (your claim), why does it recommend 100 lashes for the adulterer, who is hardly anyone's enemy?




Luke 6:27-28
27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you."

So according to you, it is pragmatic to "repel evil with good" (Koran) but not pragmatic to be "doing good" to one's enemies (Bible)? Is this objective?



“The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse – lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment”. Quran 24:2

“Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women – bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way”. Quran 4:15

The pittance that the Koran gives with one hand, it takes away with the other, repelling evil with evil and thereby nullifying whatever little good there is in its message. And the outworking of this reality is all to clear: 25% of muslims in America polled by the Pew Research Center say that violence against Americans can be justified as the global jihad.

And you justify this violence too, sadly.



You confuse and conflate the righteous judgment of God that takes place in the next life (for the enemies of love, peace and righteousness) with how we are to treat our neighbor in this life. The Bible threatens no one with death, instead it speaks of God's grace towards evil men offered in Jesus Christ, that they would turn from their sins and cease their violence towards their neighbor, the earth and God Himself. If men would turn to God, acknowledge their sin of exalting themselves above Him, and believed in Christ there would be no death, only life and life eternal. The Koran on the other hand, says this:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

I pray America wakes up before it's too late.

I'd maintain that someone who willfully ignores inconvenient questions about their beliefs which are causing real harm to others is the person who needs to "wake up"!

 

[Maverick1]

Our Maverick here is more than a bit hypocritical, sadly typical among the religious. I asked him 3 very specific and eminently reasonable questions about specific verses from his bible repeatedly in this thread, even numbered them for him so they were crystal clear, and he not only refused to answer them but insisted on pretending that they hadn't even been asked and diverted to answering more convenient questions no-one had asked. And now here he is complaining you didn't answer his question!

Sig,

I answered you in post #36 and #42. You are free to disagree with my answers, but you did receive more than one.

Here is post #36 again:
The Bible teaches that the New Covenant is a better/superior covenant than/to the old covenant. Therefore Christ is the final Guide for all His followers, not Moses. There is no such parallel teaching in the Koran, whereby a distinction between teachings/covenants is made in the book itself.

The hadith have as much in common with the New Testament as night and day do:

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/adultery-stoning.aspx

 

[CBC]

1. Do you or do you not agree that the christian bible has horrifically barbaric guidance, as does the koran?
2. Do you or do you not agree that it's only fair to judge a human on that human's actual beliefs and practices, not the barbaric things that are written in their holy book or practiced by the most extreme members of their religion? Note, you could shorthand this to do you believe in stereotyping or treating humans as individuals?
3. Just out of curiosity, since you sound like an apologist for the religion, how do you possibly explain the verse I listed as being anything other than appallingly barbaric? If you agree that it is, then fair enough.

1.

This isn't the eternal nature of God and the message of salvation! None of this stuff you speak about will happen in heaven and ultimately for all eternity for christians!! What good news and something christians look forward to . The reason is of course that people will not be commiting any evil in heaven and ultimately there will be no punishment.

Which is why about 95% of this "barbaric" stuff is brought about in the first place. Its to do with people committing evil in the first place. Tell u what. Why don't you try and find a verse where all this barbaric stuff happens without someone doing something wrong in the first place.

What would happen to this world if none of this punishment and control is initiated.

You must understand that this barbaric happens won't happen at all for all eternity for christians! ALL ETERNITY!

Oh but there is a place where the worst most barbaric stuff happens... that is in the pit of hell. The devil is an evil god and he wants to practice all his evil works on people for all eternity!! Burning people without any reason other than he hates people. This full willingness to practice burning, torturing slicing and dicing people is the act of an evil god. That is the devil.

People have been saying that the God of the heavens is an evil god!! WT? Not once ever in heaven nor for eternity will God ever once practice evil on any of his children / people!

So to try to answer you're question. The punishment for sins in the old testament are very heavy compared to the current western world. When Jesus came he taught people to practice mercy which is why the current punishment is a lot more merciful compared to ancient / biblical times. Jesus taught people a much more peaceful way.


2.

As christian we are ultimately left with two commands "love the Lord your god with all you're heart and worship him only" and "love you're neighbor as yourself"

This pretty much explains the Bible and why so many people including myself are so anti muslim "worship him only". We are basically told to by Jesus. Heaven won't have any Muslims, not 1 at all.

I've run outta time ATM however I will try to answer you're 3rd point tomorrow. I've tried to answer you're questions to the best of my ability.

 

[CBC]

3.

You're third question doesn't affect christians Sig. We aren't under those laws anymore.