Islam doesn't belong in a civilized country

[smallStops]

Sig, thank you for pointing out the clarity of their views.
Now, I am kind of curious : what is likely to happen if a son does not obey any of his parents?
Some parents are very bad, however, let's take the situation of a son who does not obey any of his
parents AND the parents are absolutely decent people ? how likely is this son to not obey the law down the line, and, to do even worse?

You quote the Bible : I think King David was crying and begging to forgiveness to God when
his own son tried to kill him, the King David. What about sons who go on to commit monstruosities
in the eyes not only of their own parents, but of society at large?

 

[luisHK]

Sig's argument is not very interesting, except if christians or jews lived in the present day taking their holy books literally. So far, at least among those 3 groups, Muslims are the worst offenders by far when citing the scriptures to apply modern law, with I suspect israeli jews second.
Christian majority countries have already separated their judiciary from the church.

 

[smallStops]

luisHK : in my quest to solve some very pressing problems, I was willing to 'learn', 'read', knee to whatever would sort things out. What I have learned : they ALL pick and chose what suits them, at a given moment.
Only very few among them are really followers of God , and these one are always the most balanced in their statements and affirmations.
After all, Hell is going to be full : it is not just unbelievers who will be filling up the place.

 

[Sig]

Sig's argument is not very interesting, except if christians or jews lived in the present day taking their holy books literally. So far, at least among those 3 groups, Muslims are the worst offenders by far when citing the scriptures to apply modern law, with I suspect israeli jews second.
Christian majority countries have already separated their judiciary from the church.

Actually my statement of fact is that the Christian bible is just as appalling as the Koran. However, fortunately most Christian's don't actually follow it literally, just like most Muslim's don't follow the Koran literally and it's equally idiotic to judge either on the content of their 2000+ year old holy book as all the anti-muslims are doing. There are fundamentalist Christians who let their kids die when simple, safe, and effective treatments are available because they believe it's gods will, or condemn their daughters to the chance at a horrible death by cervical cancer because they've deluded themselves into thinking the HPV vaccine will make them promiscuous, so Muslim fundamentalists don't have a monopoly on barbaric practices to match their book. However most of us are smart enough to realize that just like we don't judge every Christian based on those actions or those of Westboro Baptist Church, we shouldn't judge the Muslim's, many trying to flee the fundamentalists in their own countries, by the actions of their extremists.

 

[OddTrader]

Actually my statement of fact is that the Christian bible is just as appalling as the Koran. However, fortunately most Christian's don't actually follow it literally, just like most Muslim's don't follow the Koran literally and it's equally idiotic to judge either on the content of their 2000+ year old holy book as all the anti-muslims are doing. There are fundamentalist Christians who let their kids die when simple, safe, and effective treatments are available because they believe it's gods will, or condemn their daughters to the chance at a horrible death by cervical cancer because they've deluded themselves into thinking the HPV vaccine will make them promiscuous, so Muslim fundamentalists don't have a monopoly on barbaric practices to match their book. However most of us are smart enough to realize that just like we don't judge every Christian based on those actions or those of Westboro Baptist Church, we shouldn't judge the Muslim's, many trying to flee the fundamentalists in their own countries, by the actions of their extremists.

The main issue would be whether the believers of one group are compassionately willing to help helping the believers of another group. For the aim of cilvilisation and modernisation of overall human beings. And don't intentionally let a certain group of believers behind (or even worse, make irrational complaints against them.).

 

[luisHK]

Actually my statement of fact is that the Christian bible is just as appalling as the Koran. However, fortunately most Christian's don't actually follow it literally, just like most Muslim's don't follow the Koran literally and it's equally idiotic to judge either on the content of their 2000+ year old holy book as all the anti-muslims are doing. There are fundamentalist Christians who let their kids die when simple, safe, and effective treatments are available because they believe it's gods will, or condemn their daughters to the chance at a horrible death by cervical cancer because they've deluded themselves into thinking the HPV vaccine will make them promiscuous, so Muslim fundamentalists don't have a monopoly on barbaric practices to match their book. However most of us are smart enough to realize that just like we don't judge every Christian based on those actions or those of Westboro Baptist Church, we shouldn't judge the Muslim's, many trying to flee the fundamentalists in their own countries, by the actions of their extremists.

It's not quite the same, as Sharia law is still applied in much of the muslim world, when it concerns muslim citizens, whereas I can't think of any christian country with a judiciary depending on the bible's writings. It seems religious courts and laws still hold sway in some parts of Israel's life.
Sure there are fundamentalists christians who seem completely over the top, and you see probably much more of them in the US than in Europe where i'm from. It sounds crazy to read about a large proportion of americans claiming they believe in creationism.
The part of many trying to flee the fundamentalists in muslim countries is no doubt true, but many doesn't even mean the majority. We've seen recently how the popular upraisings ended up in the arab world, the population called for fundamentalists to replace the former secular autocrats, and reading about the muslim allies of the western world in Syria, they appear just a tiny bit less extremists than ISIS, and would probably show neither a progressive nor a western friendly face if they didn't need weapons and funding.
Besides there is a worrying trend of antisocial elements becoming attracted to Islam, it's very obvious in France, where lots of guys who were non religious petty criminals are attracted to Islam for the anti western image it reflects. I knew quite a few second generation north africans growing up, and many were far from model citizens but they didn't care about religion, unfortunately now the younger guys from the same background become much more dangerous criminals.
Also, reading surveys of muslims in the West, they seem to grow more fundamentalist the world over.
Anyway especially from an american point of view, i'm pretty sure there are more dangerous national security issues than controlled muslims immigrants, can't really see the US getting in the same mess europe has managed.

 

[Sig]

It's not quite the same, as Sharia law is still applied in much of the muslim world, when it concerns muslim citizens, whereas I can't think of any christian country with a judiciary depending on the bible's writings. It seems religious courts and laws still hold sway in some parts of Israel's life.
Sure there are fundamentalists christians who seem completely over the top, and you see probably much more of them in the US than in Europe where i'm from. It sounds crazy to read about a large proportion of americans claiming they believe in creationism.
The part of many trying to flee the fundamentalists in muslim countries is no doubt true, but many doesn't even mean the majority. We've seen recently how the popular upraisings ended up in the arab world, the population called for fundamentalists to replace the former secular autocrats, and reading about the muslim allies of the western world in Syria, they appear just a tiny bit less extremists than ISIS, and would probably show neither a progressive nor a western friendly face if they didn't need weapons and funding.
Besides there is a worrying trend of antisocial elements of society becoming attracted to Islam, it's very obvious in France, where lots of guys who were non religious petty criminals are attracted to Islam for the anti western image it reflects. I knew quite a few second generation north africans growing up, and many were far from model citizens but they didn't care about religion, unfortunately now the younger guys from the same background become much more dangerous criminals.
Also, reading surveys of muslims in the West, they seem to grow more fundamentalist the world over.
Anyway especially from an american point of view, i'm pretty sure there are more dangerous national security issues than controlled muslims immigrants, can't really see the US getting in the same mess europe has managed.

We have a good bit of our own Christian Sharia law here in 'Murica. Until recently the blatantly discriminatory laws against homosexuals were solely based on Christian's belief that it was against god's will to be homosexual, for example. The NC bathroom bill is another example currently in the news that is driven almost purely by religious animus.
Again, the fact that Saudi Arabia has sharia law or that kids who otherwise would be hoodlums are now Muslim hoodlums in no way supports discriminating against immigrants based on the fact that they're Muslims, on several levels.

 

[luisHK]

" the fact that Saudi has Sharia law "

I get your point, but it is way more than Saudi, much of the Muslim world's judiciary is tied to millenary old rules from their holy books, no common measure with the christian world , and again the application of Sharia seems to stem largely from popular aspirations :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country

I understand as an american your world is probably more disturbed by christian nutjobs than muslims, who form a tiny minority in the US, yet the two religions in the present day are quite different, the bit about discrimination against homosexuals in some parts of the US is a good instance, you can compare that to discriminatory laws against gays in muslim countries, whole different ballgame.

 

[Maverick1]

Actually my statement of fact is that the Christian bible is just as appalling as the Koran

Christ says "Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you..."

Can you find a parallel commandment in the Koran?

 

[Sig]

Christ says "Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you..."

Can you find a parallel commandment in the Koran?

As apocryphally attributed to Ghandi, "'I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.'"

I was raised a fundamentalist Christian, so I can quote the bible to you backward and forward. It contains horrible things and I personally know many people who do horrible things in their christian god's name.

I was never muslim, but I can google as well as you can and produce:
"And those who, when tyranny strikes them, they defend themselves, And the recompense of evil is punishment like it, but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have his reward from Allah; surely He does not love the unjust. And whoever avenges himself after having been wronged - those have not upon them any cause [for blame]. The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress mankind, and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom. (42:39-42)"
"'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.'"
"Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.'"

However you're completely and utterly missing the point. Which is the vast majority of Christians and Muslims are thankfully pretty bad at actually following their holy books faithfully, because both contain horrific things. I find fundamentalist of both religions abhorrent. I'm also rational and as such believe a religious test based on the most fundamentalist sect of any religion, as opposed to the actual real live human you're considering, is pretty ridiculous and you don't need any religion to figure that out. By the way, still wondering what possible explanation can explain why any religion that calls for stoning your disobedient sons is anything but barbaric? You can't "allegory" away that one!