Is Trading Itself a Bad Trade? I Analyzed the Industry- Prove Me Wrong

themickey said:
In agreement, trading is a bad trade for the majority, however for those who stick it out over many years it can become a good trade.
Trading is good for the soul, much to learn and imo is a window to understanding people.
The responses on this thread an example of how entertaining trading is.
The mention was made, the exception to the 'bad trade' was investing and I fully agree.
This is the reason and generalising here.... (a) it takes many years to learn, (b) when it finally gels how to trade you will have lost a lot of money, (c) it may take some years to recoup those losses, (d) when you are now account positive you are beginning to age, (e) when you age your brain slows, you have lost energy, you DO NOT want to be day trading, believe me. (f) as an older citizen you want quality of life, passive investing is the way and if you wasted years day trading you will not be ready for investing, it's a different mindset and again years of experience on what works and what doesn't work.
Investing can also mean trading, but on longer cycles, I'm personally not a fan of buy & hold unless you began many years ago with a large portfolio to begin with.
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Thank you for your input.

Perhaps you have a point about non-financial benefits. I learned a lot about myself and risk management from trading which helped in business units I set up outside of finance. I would argue, however, that the martial arts or other pursuits provide more value.
 
cityboy12 said:
Schweiz...your response doesn't make sense. There can be advantages like attracting capital, emotional rewards (like an ego boost) from showing a P&L.
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An experienced trader will get over the ego stage. Unless I'm trying to put down someone I despise or make a sad attempt to impress a girl, I have no motivation to post anything.

I'm not looking for capital, most of my trades are capital constrained. For the ones that are not, I'm certain I couldn't get anything on my terms, I have no interest in 2/20, especially when they are looking for me to disclose my trades. I have family members who want to place funds with me but I'm hesitant taking it as it complicates matters.

Am I making tens of millions while dancing on a boat with champagne? Far from it. Did I pay for everything for my moderate lifestyle with trading income despite losing money last year? Yes.

Whether your believe me or not is up to you, I have not sold a thing since I've been here for over 10 years, ask anyone. I've posted P&L before but I have no motivation to do it again.

Guys like yourself come and go on ET, some more fixated on their ideas than others.
 
d08 said:
Complimenting people solely based on how much they agree with you, that's a very low standard.[/QU
d08 said:
An experienced trader will get over the ego stage. Unless I'm trying to put down someone I despise or make a sad attempt to impress a girl, I have no motivation to post anything.

I'm not looking for capital, most of my trades are capital constrained. For the ones that are not, I'm certain I couldn't get anything on my terms, I have no interest in 2/20, especially when they are looking for me to disclose my trades. I have family members who want to place funds with me but I'm hesitant taking it as it complicates matters.

Am I making tens of millions while dancing on a boat with champagne? Far from it. Did I pay for everything for my moderate lifestyle with trading income despite losing money last year? Yes.

Whether your believe me or not is up to you, I have not sold a thing since I've been here for over 10 years, ask anyone. I've posted P&L before but I have no motivation to do it again.

Guys like yourself come and go on ET, some more fixated on their ideas than others.
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'Guys like you' - sounds like another category/box. I refer you to my previous posts about psychology. Logically, I would have to stay on this forum for a few years to prove you wrong by which stage you would have another 'category' for me.

Out of interest, and to add to the thread...how much did you invest in terms of time and money in order to get to your level? Would you say that the returns (adjusted for risks) have been worth it in comparison to other endeavours? If so, please state why.
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cityboy12 said:
'Guys like you' - sounds like another category/box. I refer you to my previous posts about psychology. Logically, I would have to stay on this forum for a few years to prove you wrong by which stage you would have another 'category' for me.
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'Guys like you' because there have been many on ET just like you, what you're asking for isn't new or unique. Demanding audited results and whatnot. Some have even received non-audited results and then what - claiming it's fake, not good enough or more typically, just disappearing.
What's in it for someone profitable wasting time "proving" this? Nothing.

cityboy12 said:
Out of interest, and to add to the thread...how much did you invest in terms of time and money in order to get to your level? Would you say that the returns (adjusted for risks) have been worth it in comparison to other endeavours? If so, please state why.
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What you're asking requires a lot of speculation.
Realistically, ff I wasn't doing this, I would've have accepted a job at a fund (I had an offer due to my trading record) for relatively low pay and being tied to a desk in an office and worse than that, having an NDA and a boss that tells me what to do.

Maybe I would've been let go and had to work for min. salary or founded my own tech company and made millions. I can't speculate that my alternatives would've been successful.

There's immense time spent on this venture, you would probably say it's not worth it and maybe you're right but that is completely subjective. What is the standard I'm comparing against?
I've spent minimal money on becoming profitable, almost nothing. Time is the major drain.[/QUOTE]
 
d08 said:
'Guys like you' because there have been many on ET just like you, what you're asking for isn't new or unique. Demanding audited results and whatnot. Some have even received non-audited results and then what - claiming it's fake, not good enough or more typically, just disappearing.
What's in it for someone profitable wasting time "proving" this? Nothing.



What you're asking requires a lot of speculation.
Realistically, ff I wasn't doing this, I would've have accepted a job at a fund (I had an offer due to my trading record) for relatively low pay and being tied to a desk in an office and worse than that, having an NDA and a boss that tells me what to do.

Maybe I would've been let go and had to work for min. salary or founded my own tech company and made millions. I can't speculate that my alternatives would've been successful.

There's immense time spent on this venture, you would probably say it's not worth it and maybe you're right but that is completely subjective. What is the standard I'm comparing against?
I've spent minimal money on becoming profitable, almost nothing. Time is the major drain.
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[/QUOTE]
No problem, but please be honest here. How much time ? How many years, for example? Also, in most cases, people 'blow up' accounts whilst learning. You must be an exception if you have not lost money this way. Did you spend money on books? software etc? What is your current (risk adjusted) return? Or to put it another way, how much money do you make now? Is this sustainable over, say 5 years? 10 years? ...into the future?

As we are in the 'numbers' business (we are not artists or priests), it is good to quantify things numerically.
 
cityboy12 said:
No problem, but please be honest here. How much time ? How many years, for example? Also, in most cases, people 'blow up' accounts whilst learning. You must be an exception if you have not lost money this way. Did you spend money on books? software etc?

As we are in the 'numbers' business (we are not artists or priests), it is good to quantify things numerically.
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I started very carefully, I didn't think I'd make make money after a year watching the markets. I started trading about 2 years after with a backtested system and lost money at a prop firm, both the capital and the loss was tiny (about 10% of a small account).

I had a considerable drawdown after my first year of considerable profit, which was about 35-40%. I did make it all back and built on it. I've yet to blow any account, 'blowing' typically means 60%+ drawdown.

I have never spend a cent on books, I got it by other means. Software costs were carried by the company I was working for at the time. This was relatively insignificant as I believe in building your own tools.
 
d08 said:
I started very carefully, I didn't think I'd make make money after a year watching the markets. I started trading about 2 years after with a backtested system and lost money at a prop firm, both the capital and the loss was tiny (about 10% of a small account).

I had a considerable drawdown after my first year of considerable profit, which was about 35-40%. I did make it all back and built on it. I've yet to blow any account, 'blowing' typically means 60%+ drawdown.

I have never spend a cent on books, I got it by other means. Software costs were carried by the company I was working for at the time. This was relatively insignificant as I believe in building your own tools.
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Time? Current risk-adjusted income? Longevity of income?
 
cityboy12 said:
Time? Current risk-adjusted income? Longevity of income?
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Time from what to what? It's a continuous process.
First profitable year? 4 years after getting involved with the markets.
 
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