Is there anybody here from France ?

[Alexandre]

I am French and left for London, UK ten years ago when I was 25 just after finishing my studies.

I left France because I couldn't find the job I wanted, i.e. become a trader. It took me one day to get a job in London as a broker initially. 6 months later I entered the training programme of a major investment bank and started trading 6 months later exotics and then credit derivatives. I could never have achieved this had I stayed in France.

Unfortunately France today is worse than 10 years ago. Despite some big champions like LVMH, Vinci,.., the country lacks dynamism and a willingness to change things. This is explained by:

- the importance of the "secteur publique" and its "fonctionnaires" (civil servants) always fighting for their own benefits at the expense of the private sector
- the notion of "avantage acquis" (acquired advantages) which means that you cannot modify the system if it means a "social regression" for the workers. That's how you become stuck with some non-business friendly laws (35-hour week)
- a wealth tax that forces you to leave the country unless you accept to become poorer and poorer. Very high income taxes for singles.
- the fact that French people are used to being assisted and they love it. They always complain about their situation but they actually never do anything to change it (except 1789). There is no willingness to change, only resignation.
- everything is "petit" (small) in France (ma petite dame, un petit cafe,..). You don't want to say "little" in every sentence you say but in France yes, they do. This reflects the state of mind of a lot of French people.
- Racism. This is a big problem in France.

These are the negatives.

There are positives as well.

The country is beautiful, healthcare is cheap and of good quality (but for how long?), the transportation grid is top notch, education is very good (although too theoretical).

From my experience, I have this feeling that one cannot make it in France, but it's a good place to retire or be unemployed.

To me, nothing beats London.

 

[lastick]

Well summarized. Bien résumé...Helas

 

[areyoukidding?]

Quote from Alexandre:

I am French and left for London, UK ten years ago when I was 25 just after finishing my studies.

I left France because I couldn't find the job I wanted, i.e. become a trader. It took me one day to get a job in London as a broker initially. 6 months later I entered the training programme of a major investment bank and started trading 6 months later exotics and then credit derivatives. I could never have achieved this had I stayed in France.

Unfortunately France today is worse than 10 years ago. Despite some big champions like LVMH, Vinci,.., the country lacks dynamism and a willingness to change things. This is explained by:

- the importance of the "secteur publique" and its "fonctionnaires" (civil servants) always fighting for their own benefits at the expense of the private sector
- the notion of "avantage acquis" (acquired advantages) which means that you cannot modify the system if it means a "social regression" for the workers. That's how you become stuck with some non-business friendly laws (35-hour week)
- a wealth tax that forces you to leave the country unless you accept to become poorer and poorer. Very high income taxes for singles.
- the fact that French people are used to being assisted and they love it. They always complain about their situation but they actually never do anything to change it (except 1789). There is no willingness to change, only resignation.
- everything is "petit" (small) in France (ma petite dame, un petit cafe,..). You don't want to say "little" in every sentence you say but in France yes, they do. This reflects the state of mind of a lot of French people.
- Racism. This is a big problem in France.

These are the negatives.

There are positives as well.

The country is beautiful, healthcare is cheap and of good quality (but for how long?), the transportation grid is top notch, education is very good (although too theoretical).

From my experience, I have this feeling that one cannot make it in France, but it's a good place to retire or be unemployed.

To me, nothing beats London.

You must like working, the weather is atrocious. I agree there are far more jobs in finance there, but the people argh, so unfriendly, so serious, the city lacks a soul.

 

[Alexandre]

Quote from areyoukidding?:

You must like working, the weather is atrocious. I agree there are far more jobs in finance there, but the people argh, so unfriendly, so serious, the city lacks a soul.

I left investment banking 4 years ago for the buy side which is a lot more fun and less stressful, and, lucky me, I work near Trafalgar square, far from the pin-suit crowd you can find in the City.

You are right, people can be unfriendly, even rude or like they couldn't care less. When you cross their path in the street, they do not try to avoid you and will literally bump into you.

I've nonetheless managed to meet interesting people outside (and even inside) the financial industry but I must say, they tend not to be Brits! When in Paris, I realise how small-minded and jealous French can be.

Regarding the weather, London's reputation as a place where it always rain is way overdone. The fog disappeared with the closure of the big chimneys.

Did you know that London has more sunny days than Paris? Check the stats. Because it's an island, the sky never stay overcast all day long. It's also more windy, cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter than Paris.

 

[areyoukidding?]

well, at least you have a good sense of humour and realise it for what it is. I agree with your assessment, I lived there for over 2 years and i find your stmt more accurate than my own. good luck to you.

 

[Wittgenstein]

Alexandre,

Thank you. Maybe France needs a new revolution, a new 1789? Maybe the No vote (I loved that) was the start?

I have just been to London and South France. I prefer France. South France is a paradise. London is no more like I knew it - before it was British and people very polite. No more. It is now a multicultural big city, with many poor and dirty areas, and people seems to be unhappy and some of them rude. And a lot of beggars sleeping on the street.

What a pity with those high taxes in France...

 

[Maverick1]

Alexandre

Le cynisme tue.

That's how I would summarize your astute observations, which seem to confirm what I've heard from some of my friends who left the country.

There is this underlying foundation of cynicism in french society that is extremely annoying, off putting and stifling. "Mais.... c'est normal! c'est noorrrrrrmal!" "Regarde, ta mere elle est folle et deambule dans la rue nue." Reaction? "Mais... c'est norrrmal, mon pote, c'est normal" I can't stand the cynical spirit and high road that some take. It reeks of hypocrisy.

On the other hand I still see so much great things in french culture, the music for ex, Aznavour, Trenet, Nougaro, Petrucianni, Django and the Hot Quintette, Grapelli etc. The list goes on and on. And of course the beautiful, rich and complex language.
It also seems that a big time liberal, Paul Krugman is a huge fan of France for its 30 hour work weeks...

Salut et bonne chance
Maverique

Quote from Alexandre:

I am French and left for London, UK ten years ago when I was 25 just after finishing my studies.

I left France because I couldn't find the job I wanted, i.e. become a trader. It took me one day to get a job in London as a broker initially. 6 months later I entered the training programme of a major investment bank and started trading 6 months later exotics and then credit derivatives. I could never have achieved this had I stayed in France.

Unfortunately France today is worse than 10 years ago. Despite some big champions like LVMH, Vinci,.., the country lacks dynamism and a willingness to change things. This is explained by:

- the importance of the "secteur publique" and its "fonctionnaires" (civil servants) always fighting for their own benefits at the expense of the private sector
- the notion of "avantage acquis" (acquired advantages) which means that you cannot modify the system if it means a "social regression" for the workers. That's how you become stuck with some non-business friendly laws (35-hour week)
- a wealth tax that forces you to leave the country unless you accept to become poorer and poorer. Very high income taxes for singles.
- the fact that French people are used to being assisted and they love it. They always complain about their situation but they actually never do anything to change it (except 1789). There is no willingness to change, only resignation.
- everything is "petit" (small) in France (ma petite dame, un petit cafe,..). You don't want to say "little" in every sentence you say but in France yes, they do. This reflects the state of mind of a lot of French people.
- Racism. This is a big problem in France.

These are the negatives.

There are positives as well.

The country is beautiful, healthcare is cheap and of good quality (but for how long?), the transportation grid is top notch, education is very good (although too theoretical).

From my experience, I have this feeling that one cannot make it in France, but it's a good place to retire or be unemployed.

To me, nothing beats London.

 

[Kicking]

also in France people are really mean and rude, Americans always say that but it's true. Same in Belgium and I hear in Germany , but in France outside the rural areas where people are friendlier I think, it's particularly striking. You only realize that when you move to a place where people are always nice and polite with you.

 

[Maverick1]

Quote from Kicking:

also in France people are really mean and rude, Americans always say that but it's true. Same in Belgium and I hear in Germany , but in France outside the rural areas where people are friendlier I think, it's particularly striking. You only realize that when you move to a place where people are always nice and polite with you.

I was in Paris once, and asked someone for directions, the guy had his back turned to me, and with his back still turned he said "This way"and pointed to both left and right directions with both hands...

Admittedly, this wasn't the nicest neighborhood in town, but it sure ticked me off.

 

[kalashnicac]

Hmm interesting thread, but I'd like to respond to some of Alexandre's comments.

I left France because I couldn't find the job I wanted, i.e. become a trader. It took me one day to get a job in London as a broker initially. 6 months later I entered the training programme of a major investment bank and started trading 6 months later exotics and then credit derivatives. I could never have achieved this had I stayed in France.

Absolutely : getting a job in finance in Paris if you're not an engineer is real hard. The brits (and yanks) are much more open-minded when it comes to diplomas.

- the notion of "avantage acquis" (acquired advantages) which means that you cannot modify the system if it means a "social regression" for the workers. That's how you become stuck with some non-business friendly laws (35-hour week)

It's actually called "acquis sociaux". Agreed it's non business friendly but somehow France manages to be a very attractive destination for foreign investors...

- a wealth tax that forces you to leave the country unless you accept to become poorer and poorer. Very high income taxes for singles.

The "wealth tax" can be considerably reduced if you invest intelligently. Besides it's not that high... High income tax for single people with high incomes, yes.
Basically the whole system is designed to reduce the gap between the rich and the poor. Of course you won't like it if you're rich. But then it depends on your idea of the kind of society you want to live in. I'd rather pay high taxes and not live in a bunker like the wealthy people in south america do.

- the fact that French people are used to being assisted and they love it. They always complain about their situation but they actually never do anything to change it (except 1789). There is no willingness to change, only resignation.

1789? How about 1848? 1936? 1968? I think France is one of the countries where the ordinary citizen is one of the least resigned : if something is wrong, everybody is in the street. It might not be very constructive, but you can't call that resigned...

- everything is "petit" (small) in France (ma petite dame, un petit cafe,..). You don't want to say "little" in every sentence you say but in France yes, they do. This reflects the state of mind of a lot of French people.

- Racism. This is a big problem in France.

Are you referring to the Front National? You'd be surprised : a lot of Arabs vote for the FN as well. Racism is a universal pb anyway.

healthcare is cheap and of good quality (but for how long?), the transportation grid is top notch, education is very good (although too theoretical).

And that of course is thanks...to high taxes

From my experience, I have this feeling that one cannot make it in France, but it's a good place to retire or be unemployed.

To me, nothing beats London.

Yes if you are young and ambitious and thirsty for money, go to London. If you think quality of life is more important that success (and if you have a family), stay in France. I respect both choices.

Besides, GB is tax-friendlier, but the cost of life in London is horrific. I worked there for six months with what I thought was a comfortable income; but once you pay the rent, transport and food, there isn't that much left.