Is the Nature of Existence a Whole Big Scam?

[arealpissedgoy]

What is the point of it all?

From the cradle to the grave we all lead a miserable existence. Endless research has shown even the uber wealthy who have every need catered to, being the most unhappy. It's a endless cycle of a pathetic existence. The very essence of survival involves a endless toil of scrounging for food, then rest, and then another session of scrounging for food. A step up would involve the need to shelter our weak bodies from the elements. And then a step up would be the need to procreate as an insurance against old age.

Everything involves and revolves around the need to survive and exist as long as possible.

Why?

 

[spect8or]

Yet for all that, joy is attainable. To what end such joy? The joyous person seldom stops to wonder. My prescription then, turn your attentions to attaining joyful states and your questions will cease to matter.

How to attain such joyous states? Humor, service, integrity, duty, honor -- dare I say it? -- religious views -- dare I again? -- Christian religious views.

Apart from humor -- the universal tonic for life's travails -- these are, of course, hardly the prescriptions of modern, liberal society. For myself, however, since abandoning virtually every vestige of my liberal upbringing, my life has never felt as endowed with purpose and meaning.

 

[arealpissedgoy]

So for you the purpose of existing is to be "joyful" about it. So if your child suddenly died, you'd still be "joyous" about it? What is your definition of being joyous? For some, the "joys of life" is to trap insects and rip their wings and legs out, or to set fire onto a cat and swing it around. Why is life so "joyous" for you? You mention religion, are you joyous because you belive there is a place called Heaven that you are destined to live in? What if I told you that Heaven is yet another grinding existence?

 

[andrasnm]

in this life they maybe uber wealthy and the next they may be paupers. reincarnation and karma are the laws that even things out. do not despair.

Quote from arealpissedgoy:

What is the point of it all?

From the cradle to the grave we all lead a miserable existence. Endless research has shown even the uber wealthy who have every need catered to, being the most unhappy. It's a endless cycle of a pathetic existence. The very essence of survival involves a endless toil of scrounging for food, then rest, and then another session of scrounging for food. A step up would involve the need to shelter our weak bodies from the elements. And then a step up would be the need to procreate as an insurance against old age.

Everything involves and revolves around the need to survive and exist as long as possible.

Why?

 

[spect8or]

Quote from arealpissedgoy:

So for you the purpose of existing is to be "joyful" about it. So if your child suddenly died, you'd still be "joyous" about it? What is your definition of being joyous? For some, the "joys of life" is to trap insects and rip their wings and legs out, or to set fire onto a cat and swing it around.

You've largely skipped over the ingredients of a joyous life that I outlined. If you reflected on them a little you might recognize that, no, I would not be joyous about the death of my child, but the values I endeavor to adhere to prepare me quite well to cope with such an event. I cannot know with any certainty beforehand how well I would cope but my experiences thus far indicate to me that I am well placed to handle any tragedy. I dare say I recognize more problems in the world than most people, yet I manage, in my estimate, to live well -- joyfully -- despite them. (A perusal of my posts would indicate what some of the problems I see are.)

Similarly, ripping the legs off insects or setting cats alight cannot be reconciled with the views of morality I hold.

Why is life so "joyous" for you?

Living in accordance with the values I listed is itself joyous; joy is the fruit of doing so. I cannot explain why this is so, yet it is -- which to me is quite enough.

You mention religion, are you joyous because you belive there is a place called Heaven that you are destined to live in? What if I told you that Heaven is yet another grinding existence?

It is not the only reason I am joyous, but, if pressed, yes I would suppose this is part of it.

I don't see how you are in any way qualified to tell me what Heaven might be like, so, to answer your question, I wouldn't be even slightly bothered.

Furthermore, I might let you know that if your purpose with this thread is to dash the hopes of anyone who replies to it, you are unlikely to succeed with me. I don't mind you trying -- though it would be more honest of you to admit it upfront -- as long as you don't get nasty for failing. Reason I add this is because misery does love company, and people who raise the topic of the apparent meaninglessness of life typically do so, in my opinion, because they would like to see everyone else share their misery.

 

[arealpissedgoy]

Quote from andrasnm:

in this life they maybe uber wealthy and the next they may be paupers. reincarnation and karma are the laws that even things out. do not despair.

According to you, the purpose of this existence is to live this life so one can re-incarnate into a higher being or a better Hierarchical position in society in the next life.

So there is a purpose to the reincarnation and the concept of Karma. The belief in "Karma" should, in theory, keep the savage impulses of man in check. After all, who wants to come back as a garden slug?

so what is the apex of it all. What would you eventually re-incarnate into after the final birth. The Buddhists belive that the highest essence of reincarnation is to never be reincarnated again and to live as a star. What would you be doing amongst the stars? for once in your life, you'd no longer need to spend valuable time looking for food or shelter. What would you be doing with all that free time?

 

[arealpissedgoy]

Quote from spect8or:



Similarly, ripping the legs off insects or setting cats alight cannot be reconciled with the views of morality I hold.

Someone who loves to do that as a sport would obviously differ with your viewpoint. Why are some people serial killers? well, because quite simply they take immense pleasure in killing others.

Maybe for them, they have found what their "joys of life" or their purpose of being is. It's to take enjoyment in killing other beings.

However, that does not necessarily mean that their views of "joyousness" is your view. For some it is being able to recite every sports related factoid, for someone else the point of the entire day could very well be to beat that pesky red light they always get stuck in. Apparently we each have our own concept of "joyousness".

Quote from spect8or:

Living in accordance with the values I listed is itself joyous; joy is the fruit of doing so. I cannot explain why this is so, yet it is -- which to me is quite enough.

It is not the only reason I am joyous, but, if pressed, yes I would suppose this is part of it.

You haven't listed any values at all. Except "Christian values". Which could very well be defined any way you care to define it.

So as I understand your comments, a grinding existence is alleviated somewhat by the belief that you will be compensated " in some manner" in the after life ( or as andras would term it, the "re-incarnated" life ) by following certain rules and regulations. Being able to follow these rules and regulations translates into a "joy ful" existence.

I took the liberty of perusing your prior posts. Unfortunately, you deviate from my version of good Christian values by denigrating others of the good Lords creation. According to the Lord, we all came from Adam and Eve, so there can be no inferior species of man since we are all progeny of the same seed.

However your point is well taken. My analysis is in no way an attack on your beliefs. In fact I have to thank you for the time you took to share your beliefs. It helps me understand how others can effectively cope with this existence.

We all have to find some "purpose" to this existence, otherwise the very nature of maintaining a existence in this life would make us eventually to go mad. For each individual, it's like embarking onto a path. Some of us find that ( "Joyousness" as you aptly termed it) at a certain point in the path, we like what we see, so we settle down there.

We settled down ( found a particular "joyousness" in this existence ) because the location of that particular place on the path seems much better than the prior locations the path passed through.

Yet the path continues ahead. Where does it terminate, or does it ever terminate? or does the path dynamically shrink to the point where one has found "joyousness" and effectively terminates there?

I think that we humans in fact have no purpose for ourselves. The purpose of our existence is to fulfill the needs of that which created us. It's like my pet dog. Is his purpose of existing to amuse me?

We have been condemned into an existence where the essence of everything we do terminates at fulfilling our (stage 1 ) primary needs, and eventually for some, our ( stage 2) secondary need. Most people on this earth, are stuck in the primary stage 1 plane of existence. The need to alleviate Hunger, Thirst, Shelter, and the need to fornicate and create more progeny to ensure a longer survival in this existence. And then once those are fulfilled, we seek to fulfill our secondary stage 2 need. Feeding a colossal and insatiable ego.

Our purpose of being created, is to fulfill the needs of God, which I belive lies in fulfilling our Ego ( what spect8or termed "joyousness" ) after we have completed our basic needs. So if that is the case, the path of existence would terminate at the point where each individuals ego has been satiated? So in the process of satiating our colossal egos, we not only provide amusement for God, we also provide ourselves with an escape from a miserable existence? Then what about the billions of others destined to live in stage 1 and never able to fulfill their ego? or is their ego correspondingly miniscule to compensate for their lack of resources. So for them existing in stage 1 is effectively also part of a stage 2 existence.

andras, do you have any suggested readings?

 

[spect8or]

Quote from arealpissedgoy:

Someone who loves to do that as a sport would obviously differ with your viewpoint. Why are some people serial killers? well, because quite simply they take immense pleasure in killing others.

Maybe for them, they have found what their "joys of life" or their purpose of being is. It's to take enjoyment in killing other beings.

However, that does not necessarily mean that their views of "joyousness" is your view. For some it is being able to recite every sports related factoid, for someone else the point of the entire day could very well be to beat that pesky red light they always get stuck in. Apparently we each have our own concept of "joyousness".

Recall that I gave a prescription for attaining the joy which, once attained, I claimed would alleviate your concerns about "the meaning of life". One who followed that prescription simply would not engage in the above activities; if he did, he would not be inaccordance with the prescription.

So, whilst I accept the point you wish to make, when addressing my point, you cannot separate the joy which I claim will alleviate you concerns about meaning from the prescription I gave for attaining that joy.

You haven't listed any values at all. Except "Christian values". Which could very well be defined any way you care to define it.

No, I listed thing such as duty, honor, service and integrity. These are all available to the non-Christian. Christianity, and religious belief generally, were an addendum to these.

So as I understand your comments, a grinding existence is alleviated somewhat by the belief that you will be compensated " in some manner" in the after life ( or as andras would term it, the "re-incarnated" life ) by following certain rules and regulations. Being able to follow these rules and regulations translates into a "joy ful" existence.

More or less. Though I would say alleviated greatly -- to the point where I do not consider it a "grinding existence". We can quibble over whether it "really" is or isn't "grinding", but in my opinion, no one who is truly content in life would describe his experience of it as "grinding".

I took the liberty of perusing your prior posts. Unfortunately, you deviate from my version of good Christian values by denigrating others of the good Lords creation. According to the Lord, we all came from Adam and Eve, so there can be no inferior species of man since we are all progeny of the same seed.

I disagree, but that, of course, is a wholly different debate.

We all have to find some "purpose" to this existence, otherwise the very nature of maintaining a existence in this life would make us eventually to go mad. For each individual, it's like embarking onto a path. Some of us find that ( "Joyousness" as you aptly termed it) at a certain point in the path, we like what we see, so we settle down there.

Perhaps. However, I initially made mention of joy not as a solution to the problem of existence per se, rather as a solution to the problem of thinking about the problem of existence. I said that a joyous person is not perplexed by abstract questions about the meaning of existence. Perhaps I confused matters by saying that I had found a meaningfulness in my life after adopting my current illiberal views. However, whether meaningfulness emerges or not is beside the point; the point is that a joyous person doesn't care about meaningfulness -- well, he certainly doesn't appear to, anyway. Perhaps we might even say that a criterion of joy is that one is not perplexed by abstract questions of meaning and existence.

Yet the path continues ahead. Where does it terminate, or does it ever terminate? or does the path dynamically shrink to the point where one has found "joyousness" and effectively terminates there?

I'm not sure what this asks. For me, I am quite happy to repeat the same actions day in day out. Life itself is perfectly capable of throwing variety my way without me purposely seeking it.

Then what about the billions of others destined to live in stage 1 and never able to fulfill their ego? or is their ego correspondingly miniscule to compensate for their lack of resources. So for them existing in stage 1 is effectively also part of a stage 2 existence.

Largely, yes. An interesting and relevant work on this subject is -- or seems to be, since I haven't finished it (only picked it up a couple of days ago) -- Alain de Botton's "Status Anxiety". The title may not suggest so, but the book is quite concerned with the questions you raise above.

 

[I am...]

Quote from arealpissedgoy:

What is the point of it all?

From the cradle to the grave we all lead a miserable existence. Endless research has shown even the uber wealthy who have every need catered to, being the most unhappy. It's a endless cycle of a pathetic existence. The very essence of survival involves a endless toil of scrounging for food, then rest, and then another session of scrounging for food. A step up would involve the need to shelter our weak bodies from the elements. And then a step up would be the need to procreate as an insurance against old age.

Everything involves and revolves around the need to survive and exist as long as possible.

Why?

These kind of questions are productive toward restoring you to your rightful place...if you are willing to accept answers outside of your current thought system.

There is a difference between existence and being. Being is your natural state as you were Created. Existence is a substitute for being. Existence is some kind of "proof" that you are, what you are not. The longer you can maintain such "proof" the more proof you think you have. All such existences, whether rich or poor, will be a strain. A state of grace is your natural state, and cannot be reconciled with existence.

Long story short, you come from a state of grace...seem to exist for as long as you dare...and will return to a state of grace. This is not a natural cycle. This is an aberration. This is the story of the "prodigal Son".

You come from Heaven, and are always just a few corrected thoughts away from returning. All choices in existence are relative to who you think you are. You are Christ. You think you are not. Existence becomes a strain.

In reality, you never left Heaven but in your concept of yourself. The universe is a mirror of what you think you are. It is a self-delusion that can never change the reality of your being, or expel you from your home. Yet while you believe in it, it is your home away from home. It is not outside of Heaven anymore than a child's private bedroom is outside his parents home. Yet in private, under covers, in the darkness, a child imagines all kinds of things that are not true. Such is this universe, including all dimensions of time, and all levels of consciousness: an imagined scenario in the mind of a very powerful being.

Christ does not value anything relative to existence. This includes all of space, time, form, stars, and reincarnational dramas of balancing experiences...anything that changes. Christ values the correction of perception, that aspects of his mind may all return to perfect knowledge where learning, healing, and salvation have no meaning. Until then, there is need for learning, healing and salvation of a confused mind. As your existence was learned, it must be unlearned. As you hurt yourself, you must accept healing. As your mind was shipwrecked, your mind must be salvaged.

As a rule of thumb, if you can see bodies...if you value them, your mind is in need of salvation. They represent a false thought system in which it is believed the one mind can be segregated, separated, divided, partitioned and privatized. This is sick. This is a strain. Bodies are outpicturings of mental states. If the mental state is strained, so will the body experience strain...sicken...die. This must be healed at the level of the mind, reversing it's perception of itself back to it's original, and unchanging wholeness.

The reversal and undoing of the thought processes that led to the seeming existence of bodies...is joyful. The goal is constant joy. Until it is constant, it is not joy at all.

So yes, the nature of existence is a scam. There is no point to it. It cannot be understood. To attempt to make sense of it will suck you further into it.

Jesus

 

[jem]

many people have speculated that everyone has a void in your being that needs to be filled.


You will not feel centered until you find a way to fill it. Or come close to filling it.

if you wish to get your peace somewhere besides God. Then:

Pick some sort of art and create.
Pick some sort of sport and master it.
Pick Chess and get good at it
Pick something that can help you compartmentalize your stress and life and make you feel transcendent.

The joys in life come from these moments.

I think the point of life is to be joined with God in trancendence when you are done.

But I think having many great moments will keep you pretty happy. Then whey you have enough of those you will probably wish to help someone achieve their transcendent moments.