Is the crypto winter over?

[johnarb]

The first intended use for bitcoin was as an actual currency. Its creators called it a “cryptocurrency”. People have used bitcoin as a currency and the dark web examples aren’t the only people who did it. Until yesterday I was thinking that buying BTC was akin to buying euros or yen expecting them to appreciate against the dollar.

I just learned in a different thread yesterday that the tax consequences of moving BTC in and out of your account isn’t like spending and receiving dollars. It’s viewed as a security now, so capital gains taxes would apply each time you sent someone some BTC to purchase something with it. This tax classification removed the one original utility BTC was designed for, medium of exchange. I realize now that it can never be money when it’s viewed as a security by the authorities.

You're posting a lot of bullshits. Can you show us where Satoshi ever used the word cryptocurrency?

Bitcoin is a commodity not a security as defined in the US, also as property in the IRS tax code

How the fuck did you get around repeatedly calling bitcoin a security?

And what's all the bullshits about capital gains for moving bitcoins in and out of wallets, where the fuck is your TAX CODE REFERENCE LINKS?

ARE YOU A FUCKING TAX EXPERT NOW POSTING ON A PUBLIC FORUM?

 

[long]

You're posting a lot of bullshits. Can you show us where Satoshi ever used the word cryptocurrency?

Bitcoin is a commodity not a security as defined in the US, also as property in the IRS tax code

How the fuck did you get around repeatedly calling bitcoin a security?

And what's all the bullshits about capital gains for moving bitcoins in and out of wallets, where the fuck is your TAX CODE REFERENCE LINKS?

ARE YOU A FUCKING TAX EXPERT NOW POSTING ON A PUBLIC FORUM?

The current lawsuit with the guy claiming to be satoshi has had emails entered into evidence that includes the correspondence where the original group chose to start calling it cryptocurrency.

I’m not a tax professional although I’ve paid my share of them. I didn’t say anything about moving BTC into a wallet being a taxable event, but moving it out is. I misspoke calling it a security, but many talking heads frequently say that “people are treating BTC as a security” so I guess it’s kinda stuck in my head at the moment. But moving BTC out of a wallet on a regulated exchange is a taxable event. Capital gains still apply, but at lower rates than securities.

I’m definitely not an expert on BTC and I’m assuming that the people here aren’t taking my posts as gospel. I’m just trying to have conversations that help me learn about it and I appreciate when people tell me when I have things wrong. Sorry I caused your blood pressure to go up.

 

[johnarb]

The current lawsuit with the guy claiming to be satoshi has had emails entered into evidence that includes the correspondence where the original group chose to start calling it cryptocurrency.

Satoshi created Bitcoin not the original group.

Even after he published the software on github, only he had the admin authority to make commit changes, only when he was leaving did he relinquish the admin rights to other people, I forgot the names

But moving BTC out of a wallet on a regulated exchange is a taxable event. Capital gains still apply, but at lower rates than securities.

Paying taxes does not make you a tax expert. This is wrong, withdrawing coins from exchanges is not a taxable event

If you purchase 1 bitcoin in 2021 at a cost basis of $60k and you spent $10 worth of btc today on coffee, you will not pay $3.70 in taxes

If you purchase 1 whole bitcoin a few months ago for $40k and bought $10 worth of btc, your tax liability would be different than someone who spent $10 worth of btc purchased in 2021 for $40k even if cost basis is the same, one is long term, the other is short term

Stop putting bullshit tax information if you are not a tax professional

https://twitter.com/x/status/1761040103202312495

 

[long]

Satoshi created Bitcoin not the original group.

Even after he published the software on github, only he had the admin authority to make commit changes, only when he was leaving did he relinquish the admin rights to other people, I forgot the names



Paying taxes does not make you a tax expert. This is wrong, withdrawing coins from exchanges is not a taxable event

If you purchase 1 bitcoin in 2021 at a cost basis of $60k and you spent $10 worth of btc today on coffee, you will not pay $3.70 in taxes

If you purchase 1 whole bitcoin a few months ago for $40k and bought $10 worth of btc, your tax liability would be different than someone who spent $10 worth of btc purchased in 2021 for $40k even if cost basis is the same, one is long term, the other is short term

Stop putting bullshit tax information if you are not a tax professional

https://twitter.com/x/status/1761040103202312495

So tell me what you think the tax outcome of this scenario would be

I buy BTC at 20k. BTC rises to 40k and I purchase a car from you worth $20000 for 0.5 BTC buy sending it from my Coinbase wallet to your wallet (wherever it may be) without converting to fiat or any other crypto. Will I be paying a capital gains tax? I realized a 100% profit on 0.5 BTC when it left my wallet.

And what would happen if I bought BTC at 40k, it falls to 20k, then I transfer 1 BTC to your wallet from my Coinbase wallet?

 

[johnarb]

So tell me what you think the tax outcome of this scenario would be

I buy BTC at 20k. BTC rises to 40k and I purchase a car from you worth $20000 for 0.5 BTC buy sending it from my Coinbase wallet to your wallet (wherever it may be) without converting to fiat or any other crypto. Will I be paying a capital gains tax? I realized a 100% profit on 0.5 BTC when it left my wallet.

And what would happen if I bought BTC at 40k, it falls to 20k, then I transfer 1 BTC to your wallet from my Coinbase wallet?

I don't give tax advise. You should consult a tax professional

Withdrawing bitcoins from Coinbase is not a taxable event, but now you've changed the parameters to say you're sending it to my wallet address in exchange for a car, that's a taxable event

But no one does this, because if there are any issues with the transfer, the counterparty may send it to the originating address. You need to withdraw your bitcoin from Coinbase first to your local wallet, FIRST

Many counterparties dealing with bitcoins and crypto assets have explicit warnings to not send directly to them from an exchange wallet

Why do you insist on discussing taxes on a public forum? ARE YOU A TAX PROFESSIONAL?

 

[long]

I don't give tax advise. You should consult a tax professional

Withdrawing bitcoins from Coinbase is not a taxable event, but now you've changed the parameters to say you're sending it to my wallet address in exchange for a car, that's a taxable event

But no one does this, because if there are any issues with the transfer, the counterparty may send it to the originating address. You need to withdraw your bitcoin from Coinbase first to your local wallet, FIRST

Many counterparties dealing with bitcoins and crypto assets have explicit warnings to not send directly to them from an exchange wallet

Why do you insist on discussing taxes on a public forum? ARE YOU A TAX PROFESSIONAL?

Nope. Just trying to learn. I haven’t consulted a professional because I haven’t sold any BTC yet, only bought. As for the “advice” you’re referring to, I’m just repeating my interpretation of stuff I’ve read on this website. I didn’t mean to imply that I knew what I was talking about. Right now I’m relying pretty heavily on other members to correct me when I’m wrong. It’s kind of why I’m here.

edit: it’s the only reason I’m here

 

[NoahA]

So tell me what you think the tax outcome of this scenario would be

I buy BTC at 20k. BTC rises to 40k and I purchase a car from you worth $20000 for 0.5 BTC buy sending it from my Coinbase wallet to your wallet (wherever it may be) without converting to fiat or any other crypto. Will I be paying a capital gains tax? I realized a 100% profit on 0.5 BTC when it left my wallet.

And what would happen if I bought BTC at 40k, it falls to 20k, then I transfer 1 BTC to your wallet from my Coinbase wallet?

Just guessing here, but what you describe is interesting. If the bitcoin moves from individual to individual, its not all that apparent that it was actually sold. You would likely already need to be involved in some audit in order for them to figure this out. Of course if you bought a car they will wonder how you paid for it, but this would all still have to be investigated. Its not like most people who sell bitcoins for cash at a KYC exchange, and that exchange already sends all the records to the government anyway, so there its obvious you sold. With your example, its not obvious you sold, but the trail is there.

The conversion to fiat happens at the time of purchase. In your example, you paid $20k, so 0.5 BTC, and this amount of bitcoin you bought for 10k. So you would have a gain of $10k to pay taxes on. If you sold bitcoin for the same price you bought it for, then the price appreciation is zero, and hence no tax incurred.

 

[NoahA]

Just trying to learn. I haven’t consulted a professional because I haven’t sold any BTC yet, only bought.

As for selling, that is of course the game plan for many people. Even though we all understand that it is superior savings technology, the whole point of saving is so that you can enjoy the reward later. Some people want to leave some for their kids, and that's good too. But I imagine many of us have a goal in mind.

John introduced this guy on youtube to me, Tai Zen, and he has this saying, "life changing profits". He has been in crypto for a long time, and already made it, so now he runs workshops and has a team. His idea is that when you make life changing profits, you sell. Nobody wants to watch bitcoin go to 500k, and even though you don't need to buy anything, you watching it come down all the way to 60k and have to wait another 4 years for the next pump would be painful. (if the cycles still continue like this) At some point, I'm sure the price will stabilize, but we all expect it to be much higher. I personally feel like it has a shot at being the world reserve currency. Its going to be the only thing that corporations and governments can trust. But if it takes 20 years to get there, I'm not waiting until I'm retired to enjoy the profits.

So maybe for some people, buying a house and eliminating their biggest expense would be life changing. Or being able to fully retire early, leave the US, move to Asia, and live on a smaller budget but very comfortably. If you buy the house, you might realize that in 10 years, it loses value against bitcoin, so maybe the idea is to never buy, but only rent. On the flip side, if you eliminate your biggest expense, a mortgage, then this gives you security that you will always have somewhere to live. (assuming the taxes don't get you)

My philosophy is I want to somewhat time the exit properly on this bull market, and John talks about this as well, but at the same time, I fully believe that there is nothing better to store your wealth in than bitcoin. For me, life changing means not having to work anymore. Selling bitcoin therefore means doing it when I can realize this goal. But where the top is for this cycle nobody knows. It can be anywhere from 100k to 1million.

 

[long]

Just guessing here, but what you describe is interesting. If the bitcoin moves from individual to individual, its not all that apparent that it was actually sold. You would likely already need to be involved in some audit in order for them to figure this out. Of course if you bought a car they will wonder how you paid for it, but this would all still have to be investigated. Its not like most people who sell bitcoins for cash at a KYC exchange, and that exchange already sends all the records to the government anyway, so there its obvious you sold. With your example, its not obvious you sold, but the trail is there.

The conversion to fiat happens at the time of purchase. In your example, you paid $20k, so 0.5 BTC, and this amount of bitcoin you bought for 10k. So you would have a gain of $10k to pay taxes on. If you sold bitcoin for the same price you bought it for, then the price appreciation is zero, and hence no tax incurred.

Yeah there’s a lot of what if’s. I once bought a new truck by transferring grain to the dealer. It’s not common practice but it does happen in farming areas. Since it was an “even trade” and no money changed hands I was able to avoid sales tax. Since BTC is considered a commodity I was wondering if the same loophole would exist if I was transferring BTC instead of grain. I added the capital gains part because I don’t know if it would apply. John made a good point about not transferring it from an exchange wallet though.

 

[schizo]

As I was reading the above posts, I kept wondering why Satoshi capped the number of bitcoin at 21M...

https://beincrypto.com/satoshi-nakamoto-bitcoin-supply/

Emails purportedly from the pseudonymous Bitcoin developer, Satoshi Nakamoto, emerged on Friday, courtesy of Martii Malmi, an early contributor to the flagship digital asset. The correspondence adds further depth to Bitcoin’s lore, shedding light on its humble beginnings and Nakamoto’s decision-making process.