Is learning the trading business like learning any other business?

Quote from weitau:

Guys, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you cannot be a good trader because trading IS gambling. I'm saying it's LIKE gambling, but in games like poker or blackjack, you do have a chance to get the odds in your favor.

Also like in any good game, if there's a perception that skill is involved, the game becomes more successful.

It's been said that the biggest hurdle to success in trading is yourself. The psychological factor is something that you cannot ignore. If you cannot understand your emotions and find way to control it, then stop fooling yourself that you have an edge in trading. Get a Subway franchise and you'll make more money.

This is a great thread, lots of good responses, BTW
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Hi,
I just finished watching one of the major poker tournaments on TV, I watch them regularly and can see where you are coming from and agree that many of the skills required in the markets are exhibited by these poker players and are also found in many professional businessmen.
You mention Subway franchises, businesses such as these probably don't allow you to develop market skills. There are many other businesses though that help to develop high level risk management skills. In the construction industry that I've always operated the problems that can derail you and require effective management are - industrial action,slow payment, no payment, accidents - property or physical damage with ensuing worksafe fines or jail, prior to 1994 we walked the steel, 1 mistake you fall and probably die ( think of the amount of self control required to get up there and do this day in day out), pricing projects yes you can sometimes get it wrong the list goes on ad nauseum but I'm sure that you get the gist. These are all potential everyday problems, dealing with these sorts of issues has certainly helped me where the markets are concerned. Another thing you develop in this environment is a finely tuned bullshit meter that sets of a loud alarm when you encounter people who act less than honestly and are not truthful.
Introspection becomes a part of your routine as mistakes are generally expensive and painful leaving you with no wish to repeat them. Money management and strategy development skills also become finely honed in a highly competative operating environment.
Yes you must develop relationships, organize people, equiptment, materials etc, but if you rely on just these skills to get you thru then you won't get too far.

These are some of the main reasons that I say business develops market skills.

Regards

Johno
 
Quote from loza:

when I was living in Chicago and traded at the now defunct MidAm exchange the
markteers and promoters were "selling" the seat as "a hot dog vendor has more setup costs than the seat of the MidAm membership cost....".
Well, let me reminisce here for a moment... A hot dog vendor usually, if he or she is not an absolute moron and lacks of hygiene can make a $100 a day or more depending on his locale.
MidAm traders were just like anyone else struggling with order flow, days of losing....(seldom you lose as a hot dog vendor).
So all in all trading is not like ANY business.
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Hi loza, ( or anyone in the know)
Just out of curiosity, would you care to share what sort of returns the traders at the Mid-Am were averaging % wise, even roughly on a daily, weekly, monthly time frame. It would be much appreciated I'm sure, simply for benchmark purposes.

Thanks in advance

Johno
 
Quote from flyingdutchmen:

for any trader out there thinking that trading actually is gambling; i just dont get it.if that is what you believe then why would you even consider trading.go to www.casinokoning.com or any other of the casino sites and try your luck there
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Hi,
Wasn't the Flyingdutchman a mytical ghost ship.

I was flying home new years eve and the plane had an entertainment screen. I clicked on to the business option, there was a fund trader who had quit his job and was attempting to trade his way around the world. Each time he attempted to speculate in order to pay his way he failed spectacularly. The reason should have been obvious, he was competing against people that had always made their living from trading against people just as niave as him. Yet he still maintained his enthusiasm in the face of adversity. These businessmen simply ate him alive. No experienced businessman should have made this novice mistake, yet the vast majority of would be traders regularly fail to recognize the obvious and then go on to blame anything and everything but the obvious mistake. For people who approach speculation from this perspective trading is most certainly the ultimate form of gambling.
Regards
Johno
 
having been in multiple businesses, and trading quite well thse days, I can offer some input


There are similarities of course, but there are similarities with almost everything business and women, business and trading, business and life, business and rocketshops, business and waterflow , business and catching fish.

The skills required in trading operate very closely with constant refining strategies and correcting mistakes
In business you can have a great product and just have tons of mistakes but still make out because of the incredible profit margin from your great product.


Successful mentalities and ideas are definately interchangeable from business <-> trading

but successful ideas from anything is interchangeable to be really longlasting and successful.

The key to most successful ideas is its transplantablibility , if thats even a word, if it can work in business #1 , or trading strategy #2 , or selling lemonade #3 , all together, its a very good strategy because it strategies against human nature, not just that particular event.

A successful person can be transplanted from any industry and business, as long as he applies his correct methology , if he's a really successful person with tthe right methology, he can conquer any business with that 1 methology/idealogy.

One of the immense benefits of strong trading skills is its longlasting surivability, the more successful and longer you trade, the more skilled you become, ie. buffet,jones, sorors other people who have been trading more then 10+ years.
Their experience is constantly being added.


With business, it works in waves or new inventions, a successful gold miner can't apply his skills into making a new kindle, his skills stops there. A successful subway owner can not apply his skills into turning iron ore into swords.


A successful inventor or creator such as Steve jobs is different, because he can consistently make/create a new product which makes his business or job a longlasting one.
He is a true inventor/manager/executor all put in one, just like a successful professional longer term trader.


I guess the key is as I said before, duplicity or the ability to take your skills and apply it to any newcoming industry and succeed.
 
Quote from Alexis:

To answer thread:

No, because distribution of risk is totally different from any "normal" business.
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Could you please explain what you mean by a "normal" business as risk management/evaluation is a major component in running virtually all businesses. If you are referring strictly to "distribution of risk" per se then it is only one issue to be addressed in a plethora of issues when in business or speculating!

Regards
Johno
 
For some, trading is like gambling. You have a negative expectancy edge, just like all the opponents. You aren't playing against a house or smart money. Everyone involved in trading is the house. These are the loser traders.

For some, trading is like a business. You search for a positive expectancy edge. The search can continue fruitless for many years. These are the break-even traders.

For some, trading is like acting, you get rejected hundreds of times, until you hit the "big" winner. Rinse and repeat. These are the winning traders.
 
Quote from flyingdutchmen:

for any trader out there thinking that trading actually is gambling; i just dont get it.
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People like to think they are clever or intellectual by claiming "trading = gambling". Yes, they have some aspects in common, but many people obviously don't understand the differences.
 
I'm not much of a poster here, but my 2 cents worth: For years I refused to accept that trading (for me, intraday indexes) was gambling. It seemed more legiitimate to consider myself a small business owner. I adopted the "treat trading like a business" line that many guru's (failed traders usually) teach. Anyone who has traded for a few years can easily understand that trading has similarities to the myrid of other ways people attempt to generate income. These include "businesses", other types of investing/speculating, "gambling", working 9 -5, just collecting intrest on a cd, playing the lottery, .....

What I now accept is that it is a waste of time to try to associate trading with any of these other endeavors, in order to pull into your trading some of the elements that allow for success in those other endeavors. You can pick and choose the rest of your life looking for that grail through associations. What works for me mentally is to just consider the degree of risk with any attempt to make money, giving consideration to all the little nuances that can go with any of them. In that respect everything is a gamble. It is just a matter of degree. Trading is at the high end of the risk continium for most people.

I do use a gambling comparison when describing tradng to others, in that I see similarities that have meaning for me.
For example, there are very few long term profitable gamblers out there, just as there are few long term profitable traders. Who are they? They are not the ones who went to Vegas and took a 2 week "How to beat the Casino" course. They are not the ones who paid another gambler 10 grand for the "secrets". They are instead the ones who probably lost it all, perhaps several times, and kept trying. They are the ones who in every aspect of the game, slowly accumulated experience with what works and what does not. They are the ones who eventually realize they are just taking money from the less experienced people who are working their way through the "what does not work" process. Quite different than a business making a product or delivering a service.

Trying to say that trading is like a given business and therefore you should do something is a similar manner, is like arguing which indicator is best.
 
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