Is it possible to achieve the right state of mind for trading?

Clearly it is possible for some, but for others it is not.

and that is part of the reason why traders, especially retail traders, fail.....

The"state of mind" that one wants is simple to describe, but difficult to obtain....why...? Because we are the product of our previous programming over a the long years of our childhood...

If we look at professional athletes for instance, you can "see" the difference in the way they carry themselves on and off the field of competition...Look for instance how Kobe Bryant speaks and acts during, before and after a game....Whether he wins or losses, it is the same "matter of fact" attitude...He walks on the court knowing that he is highly skilled, knowing that he is prepared by virtue of many hours of practice, and knowing that he has done it (performed well) many times before....

With that in mind, he knows that if he just relaxes, and lets himself perform as he has many times before, he has a good chance of winning.

Now that is but one example of how "state of mind" works...

Another is when things aren't going well.....and again I like to model what I have seen with pro athletes. ....I watched Joe Montana over a period of years, and I paid a lot of attention to what he did when things got tough and his team was behind in the last quarter of a game. Does anyone remember "The Catch"....Joe Montana to Dwight Clark to beat the Dallas Cowboys in the 1982 NFC Championship game...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Catch_(American_football)

What I found important about that particular play was the way Montana maintained his calm, called the play and reacted the way he had been taught from childhood.

This "calm" attitude of self-possession in an atmosphere of tension is one that exemplifies winners, and separates them from the rest of the crowd...

I always wondered about it myself until one day I had the chance to talk to a gentleman who actually worked with professional athletes to help them maintain their calm cool frame of mind. Believe me, it can be done...

One thing that might help is too read a book by Dr. Brett Steenbarger Phd. titled "The Psychology of Trading, Tools and Techniques for Minding the Markets"...published by Wiley Books.

I hope that helps

Steve
 
This has to do with money and success, I believe. Once one has accumulated wealth trading is not stressful anymore. Getting there is the hard part.

As long as one is undercapitalized and has not experienced success one is in doubt. The positive feedback that only success gives is missing and the financial safety, too. Naturally stress is felt more.
 
Quote from lorax2013:

A lot will disagree, but I think the key to stress free trading is to have a detached attitude towards money . . .
More...

I completely agree. P&L is simply a way keeping score like runs in a baseball game. When it is put in the proper context, one's attention can be focused on the process and not the outcome, which usually boosts performance.
 
Markets are fluid which means a trader must have more than one tool in their tool box. It takes years to learn which tool will work in any given market. Once you learn that, you're only one step away from stress free trading. That day will come when you look at the market, look in your tool bag and say. I ain't got a tool for todays market. You'll then shut your system down for the day and go do something else, without giving it a second thought. "Without giving it a second thought" is the operative phrase.
 
Quote from CaptainObvious:

Markets are fluid which means a trader must have more than one tool in their tool box. It takes years to learn which tool will work in any given market. Once you learn that, you're only one step away from stress free trading. That day will come when you look at the market, look in your tool bag and say. I ain't got a tool for todays market. You'll then shut your system down for the day and go do something else, without giving it a second thought. "Without giving it a second thought" is the operative phrase.
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and a few blown accounts:p
 
Quote from chewbacca:

stree free trading happens only after you've watched the market everyday for over 3 years and you've seen it all
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ROFLMAO

Do you really think after 3 years you will have seen it all?

I'm approaching 30 years (27 actually) in the markets and I'm still wondering what the hell I really know.

:cool:
 
Quote from steve46:

Clearly it is possible for some, but for others it is not.

and that is part of the reason why traders, especially retail traders, fail.....

The"state of mind" that one wants is simple to describe, but difficult to obtain....why...? Because we are the product of our previous programming over a the long years of our childhood...

If we look at professional athletes for instance, you can "see" the difference in the way they carry themselves on and off the field of competition...Look for instance how Kobe Bryant speaks and acts during, before and after a game....Whether he wins or losses, it is the same "matter of fact" attitude...He walks on the court knowing that he is highly skilled, knowing that he is prepared by virtue of many hours of practice, and knowing that he has done it (performed well) many times before....

With that in mind, he knows that if he just relaxes, and lets himself perform as he has many times before, he has a good chance of winning.

Now that is but one example of how "state of mind" works...

Another is when things aren't going well.....and again I like to model what I have seen with pro athletes. ....I watched Joe Montana over a period of years, and I paid a lot of attention to what he did when things got tough and his team was behind in the last quarter of a game. Does anyone remember "The Catch"....Joe Montana to Dwight Clark to beat the Dallas Cowboys in the 1982 NFC Championship game...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Catch_(American_football)

What I found important about that particular play was the way Montana maintained his calm, called the play and reacted the way he had been taught from childhood.

This "calm" attitude of self-possession in an atmosphere of tension is one that exemplifies winners, and separates them from the rest of the crowd...

I always wondered about it myself until one day I had the chance to talk to a gentleman who actually worked with professional athletes to help them maintain their calm cool frame of mind. Believe me, it can be done...

One thing that might help is too read a book by Dr. Brett Steenbarger Phd. titled "The Psychology of Trading, Tools and Techniques for Minding the Markets"...published by Wiley Books.

I hope that helps

Steve
More...

for every kobe bryant's and Montana's of the world; there are 10,000 yard dogs trying to bust a nut....
 
yes you are right.

There has got to be an intangible aspect to this. I don't pretend to know what it is. I don't know of anyone who does. I call it talent or aptitude, but I am sure there is more to it...Whatever "IT" is, you better hope you have some of it in your blood if you are going to committ to doing this work...or it will be a long and unsuccessful road...
One thing that does help, and I can say this from experience, is being able to look "over the shoulder" of a skilled talented trader. I don't think there's any better training than that...
 
Quote from steve46:

yes you are right.

There has got to be an intangible aspect to this. I don't pretend to know what it is. I don't know of anyone who does. I call it talent or aptitude, but I am sure there is more to it...Whatever "IT" is, you better hope you have some of it in your blood if you are going to commit to doing this work...or it will be a long and unsuccessful road...
One thing that does help, and I can say this from experience, is being able to look "over the shoulder" of a skilled talented trader. I don't think there's any better training than that...
More...


Trading with sports memory is kinda nice.

You named this talent or aptitude "IT".

Experience unfolds over time. Some people add to their experience and others repeat the same old....

Knowledge and skills come from experience when having experiences is focused and purposeful.

Trading with sport memory, for me wasn't a goal; literally, I had never even heard of sports memory with regard to trading.

But it happened for me and I KNEW it was there and that was what was going on. To explain sports memory is easy. everyone reading this uses sports memory to drive their cars, sail their boats in competitions and flyin their gliders in acrobatics or Xcountry competitions. In pick up sports, people can show sports memory as well if and when skills are involved.

For trading IT occurs before you realize IT is happening. One facit is the place you look at on the screen. There are several windows on the screen and you do glance around but there is one place associated with money that you will be taking in that is there and with IT you look there while "KNOWING THAT YOU KNOW YOU KNOW".

If you are old enough to have a driver's license, you have that automatic place you look and KNOW THAT YOU KNOW YOU KNOW. This space is 100% good to go with a safe outcome because you are driving concumately and actually unconsciously

The attachment below shows this space without putting in a specific annotation. In terms of price (and not price action) it is the forming bar and the future zone which is bounded by the Walls (for anyone not fully using DOM, it is the vertical price range between the two large (upper and lower booked limit order sets at "away” prices from the BBid/BAsk)).

In sports memory, this is the glass and the rim combo that a spinning basketball must find unimpeded to make points. It is also different too, because in IT you do more than put on the spin and shoot, you "run" the time clock and you have another player on your team who keeps feeding you the ball when it is the right time to have the ball to take the shot. YOU ALWAYS KNOW THAT YOU KNOW THE OTHER PLAYER (the market) IS THERE AND IS PLAYING WITH YOU AND NO ONE CAN STOP YOU AND HIM EVER FOR ANY REASON.

With sports memory...IT is all unconscious memory operating and being flawless and front running the plays ALL the time. Look at the space and run the clock longer and longer.....keep scaning the whole playing field (right here it has to be recognized that almost no one has ever seen the playing field (go read the 95% failure thread) so they are never going to have a "sports memory" opportunity. No one reading this is going to "fix" their displays; these people are not "nudgeable"(see "Nudge", Thaler and Sunstein, 2008). And finally, you take the shot when the time to carve the turn is upon you as in slowly drifts from the near term future into the present all other paths having been closed off, finally and certainly. You, with sports memory "see" the open alternatives AND you "see" them close in sequences until that great moment comes when what is certain moves from the near term future into the present, the ball makes the points and the ball comes right back to you and your tireless partner the market.

Feelings of sports memory are uneven ranging from comfortable anticipation to ggod support and the slo motion of a ball released and knowing that you know you are getting the ball back right after it goes through the platform and posts the print of the segment's profits....swishy feelings. There is no other team on the court...the field house is empty except for your mind playing unconsciously and the market giving you the feeds. It is a huge place to play and with sports memory, IT, is not energy demanding to any extent. No sweat, no dry mouth, no sore fingers, no ligaments screaming but just satisfaction of only trading on profits and sweeping the account weekly to shift excesses to the equities and sector rotation markets....

From here to sports memory has a series of links, anyone of which being broken precludes having IT.

Display

Partnering with the market and sharing defined responsibilities.

10's of drills......P,V relation is like traffic light laws.....capacity is like speed limit laws........Walls are like.......coming into and executing turns in the road or tacking or turning marks and snapping your wing in the photo of the road intersection in that small town's center (vetical banking).

10's of more drills

10's of more drills

1 car, take out initial capital, 1 car, 2, 3, 4, 5, reside

6, 7, 8, 9, 10, reside

10, 15, 20 reside

20, 30 reside, 40 ,50 reside

Drills on partial fills (odd and even harmonics)

50, two 50's as a partial fills, three 50's with partial fills

Four and five partial fill's 50's....capacity permitting.

Before any trading in the futures it is best to be an expert in equities. Equities are slo motion warm ups for commodities. While usually just traded long it is possible to see that more money velocity is associated with the short half of the cycle (a 27 to 8 ratio of time applies, power law in effect)

Working from 30 to 100 turns a year @ 10% a turn is the common path of compounding.

Sports memory comes from two parallel paths and it is largely an unconscious process. The physiological portion is a result of the brain's capability due to its plasticity. (google plasticity and LeDoux); the intentional part(psychological) is the drilling. I had the advantage of many many years of hand plotting charts daily with a pencil (Today you can see comments from Tim Morge (See last trader's Expo presentations, page 18) who still does it for commodities). 10's and 10's of drills build your mind.

These drills create the many many tipping points for getting closer and closer to sports memory. One of the greatest single realizations a person goes through is deciding to learn how markets operate at the fork in the road that appears once a person recognizes that continuing to avoid partnering with the markets is a bad idea.

By looking at your business plan and trading plan, you can see right off that you are not going to get to sports memory. You can circle all the reasons there and you can put in carrots where you have to add whatever is missing. If you have less than 50 things to correct that is a good thing.

So where does talent and aptitude fit into sports memory. I rate the need for talent as very low simply because I have seen so many people become traders where there was no talent involved. Read posts of new people to the site and see that there usually is no talent.

If you break 100, I think that there is sufficient aptitude. People, ordinarily, can succeed at trading. If they do not, it is a consequence of their choices.

There are six major bad choices:

1. Choosing to learn to make money.

2. Choosing to compete with others.

3. Choosing to bet in lieu of “knowing that you know”.

3. Choosing to use band aids in lieu of cures for problems.

4. Choosing to avoid critical thinking at any time when it is called for

5. Choosing to invent, ever.
 

Attachments

simple solution,there are 2 of you,one sitting up on a shelf watching the world act and repeat history over and over,Godlike.letting the freedom of choice play out in front of you. The other is you making mistakes over and over. Intuitively, you know when you should and shouldn't trade. Impatiently ,you break this rule over and over. At some point you will realize the difference between a should and shouldn't trade and when you stop making the shouldn'ts,you will except your should trades that go wrong and are stopped out quickly as part of the business and your emotional involvement will drop significantly,have i learned not to take the shouldn'ts,no ,but i'm improving.
 
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