Quite so.
Science being proof without certainty. Religion being certainty without proof.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
Voltaire
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Is God mute?
- Thread starter nitro
- Start date
Science being proof without certainty. Religion being certainty without proof.
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
Voltaire
You don't have the IQ to think in systems because if you did... you would realize it is intention or it is random chance...
Lets see the 4 possible explanations as Susskind explained...
1. God did it
2. Luck
3. the theory of everything ( or since you have not understood that when I explained to it to you.) "it had to be that way".
4. multiverse.
so now lets think this through... what could have caused each possibility
1. design
2... equals random chance
3. could be random chance or design
4. could be random chance or design
Stu... please get some education... before you get so bombastic.
Lets see the 4 possible explanations as Susskind explained...
1. God did it
2. Luck
3. the theory of everything ( or since you have not understood that when I explained to it to you.) "it had to be that way".
4. multiverse.
so now lets think this through... what could have caused each possibility
1. design
2... equals random chance
3. could be random chance or design
4. could be random chance or design
Stu... please get some education... before you get so bombastic.
atheist evangelical bigot is what you are stu. you are everything you despise in the fake religious or the immature religious or the dumb religious.
Belief in God is through faith for millions of believers.
If you read the biographies of even some of the most famous and thoughtful believers, they all admit to having doubts... sometimes long periods of doubts.
Why do you have make such juvenile arguments?
Some believers have 40 to 50 more IQ points than you, they are very well educated and some are top scientists... and they all have doubts at times.. its part of believing.
Belief in God is through faith for millions of believers.
If you read the biographies of even some of the most famous and thoughtful believers, they all admit to having doubts... sometimes long periods of doubts.
Why do you have make such juvenile arguments?
Some believers have 40 to 50 more IQ points than you, they are very well educated and some are top scientists... and they all have doubts at times.. its part of believing.
a powerball HIT success has at best 1 in 175 million chance...how many have beat those odds in OUR lifetime so far?
ya, right
LIFE has bookoo's more time to arise.
ya, right
LIFE has bookoo's more time to arise.
Religiosity and intelligence
"...Most of the recent scientific studies have found a negative correlation between I.Q. and religiosity.[1][2] On the individual level, the education level is positively correlated with a belief in a god in African countries, and negatively correlated in Western countries. The frequency of church visits is however positively correlated with education level in English-speaking countries as well as in Protestant Europe.[3]..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
"...Most of the recent scientific studies have found a negative correlation between I.Q. and religiosity.[1][2] On the individual level, the education level is positively correlated with a belief in a god in African countries, and negatively correlated in Western countries. The frequency of church visits is however positively correlated with education level in English-speaking countries as well as in Protestant Europe.[3]..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
My opinion is that believing in God has a very small correlate with IQ. For example, numerous threads on ET have sprung up on ET about Ashkenazy Jews having high IQs. And yet, jews are one of the most religious groups around!??? People on ET are really obsessed with IQ. What IQ measures is a very specific type of talent. Sort of like being 6'5". Great if you play baskeball, but otherwise who cares?
I do believe that belief in a Biblical type of God has a very high correlation to education though. The more educated you are, you are far far less likely to believe on the Biblical God. Probably more accurately, the more educated your parents are the more likely you are to not have a religious upbringing. And if you were brought up by educated parents to believe in the Biblical God, in turn because your parents will encourage you to go to university, the more likely you are to be cured of organized religion by the time you graduate.
In fact, that might be one of the definitions of education!
I do believe that belief in a Biblical type of God has a very high correlation to education though. The more educated you are, you are far far less likely to believe on the Biblical God. Probably more accurately, the more educated your parents are the more likely you are to not have a religious upbringing. And if you were brought up by educated parents to believe in the Biblical God, in turn because your parents will encourage you to go to university, the more likely you are to be cured of organized religion by the time you graduate.
In fact, that might be one of the definitions of education!
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no one here was saying those who believe test out to be smarter or more educated as a group. Its rather trendy for reasonably smart people to throw out a belief in God because faith does not fit into the scientific method too well. I note plenty of people disregard their religious beliefs while in school but get them back when they have their own kids. I also note a pretty high percentage of educated parents in suburbs... especially during the housing crisis restored their religious beliefs. More than a few pastors will tell you that hard times increases attendance.
But the above is a sidetrack... I was simply pointing out some believers are smarter than Stu and some are top scientists and some are in Mensa.
regarding IQ tests...
I know that IQ test do a good job of testing how quickly you can learn things and spot patterns. For a person to think in systems and not just straight cause and effect corresponds to about a 120 plus IQ. You can really see the lack of systems thinking here and in politics.
they are people who can't think in terms of curves... (economic type curves).
You can also see it here on et... especially in those who feel superior but have average IQs. They tend to have read Talebs book and have been completely fooled by it.
They see randomness everywhere, even in patterns.
But the above is a sidetrack... I was simply pointing out some believers are smarter than Stu and some are top scientists and some are in Mensa.
regarding IQ tests...
I know that IQ test do a good job of testing how quickly you can learn things and spot patterns. For a person to think in systems and not just straight cause and effect corresponds to about a 120 plus IQ. You can really see the lack of systems thinking here and in politics.
they are people who can't think in terms of curves... (economic type curves).
You can also see it here on et... especially in those who feel superior but have average IQs. They tend to have read Talebs book and have been completely fooled by it.
They see randomness everywhere, even in patterns.
you need to go deeper. Some of the top scientific and mathematical minds in the world say our universe appears designed... they certainly understand statistics. We are talking astronomical long shots. one chance is a number with 120 zeros in it or more.
Cosmologist and mathematician Roger Penrose once attempted to calculate the probability that chance allowed the initial state of the universe and its entropy to be exactly 'right' to allow it to still exist now. His answer was 1 chance in 10^10^123, a probability so small as to effectively be zero. To get a picture of this number, note that the number of baryons (protons & neutrons) in the universe is estimated to be about 10^80. We could write that number as 1 followed by 80 zeros. But to write Penrose's number would require 1 followed by a zero on every baryon in the universe, and then more.
http://www.is-there-a-god.info/clues/design.shtml
Cosmologist and mathematician Roger Penrose once attempted to calculate the probability that chance allowed the initial state of the universe and its entropy to be exactly 'right' to allow it to still exist now. His answer was 1 chance in 10^10^123, a probability so small as to effectively be zero. To get a picture of this number, note that the number of baryons (protons & neutrons) in the universe is estimated to be about 10^80. We could write that number as 1 followed by 80 zeros. But to write Penrose's number would require 1 followed by a zero on every baryon in the universe, and then more.
http://www.is-there-a-god.info/clues/design.shtml
a powerball HIT success has at best 1 in 175 million chance...how many have beat those odds in OUR lifetime so far?
ya, right
LIFE has bookoo's more time to arise.
Q https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_God
Studies on scientists' beliefs
According to a study that was done by University of Nebraska–Lincoln in 1998, 60% of Nobel prize laureates in physics from 1901 to 1990 had a Christian background.[163] Since 1901-2013, 22% of all Nobel prizes have been awarded to Jews despite them being 0.2% of the world population.[164]
Many studies have been conducted in the United States and have generally found that scientists are less likely to believe in God than are the rest of the population. Precise definitions and statistics vary, with some studies concluding that about 1/3 of scientists in the USA are atheists, 1/3 agnostic, and 1/3 have some belief in God (although some might be deistic, for example).[61][165][166] This is in contrast to the more than roughly 3/4 of the general population that believe in some God in the United States. Other studies on scientific organizations like the AAAS show that 51% of their scientists believe in either God or a higher power and 48% having no religion.[167] Belief also varies slightly by field. Two surveys on physicists, geoscientists, biologists, mathematicians, and chemists have noted that, from those specializing in these fields, physicists had lowest percentage of belief in God (29%) while chemists had highest (41%).[165][168] Other studies show that among members of the National Academy of Sciences, concerning the existence of a personal god who answers prayer, 7.0% expressed belief, 72.2% expressed disbelief, and 20.8% were agnostic,[169] however Eugenie Scott argued that there are methodological issues in the study, including ambiguity in the questions. A study with clearer wording on leading scientists in the US, concluding that 40% of prominent scientists believe in a god.[170]
In 1916, 1,000 leading American scientists were randomly chosen from American Men of Science and 41.8% believed God existed, 41.5% disbelieved, and 16.7% had doubts/did not know; however when the study was replicated 80 years later using American Men and Women of Science in 1996, results were very much the same with 39.3% believing God exists, 45.3% disbelieved, and 14.5% had doubts/did not know.[61][165] In the same 1996 survey, scientists in the fields of biology, mathematics, and physics/astronomy, belief in a god that is "in intellectual and affective communication with humankind" was most popular among mathematicians (about 45%) and least popular among physicists (about 22%). In total, in terms of belief toward a personal god and personal immortality, about 60% of United States scientists in these fields expressed either disbelief or agnosticism and about 40% expressed belief.[165] This compared with 58% in 1914 and 67% in 1933.[citation needed]
A survey conducted between 2005 and 2007 by Elaine Howard Ecklund of University at Buffalo, The State University of New York on 1,646 natural and social science professors at 21 elite US research universities found that, in terms of belief in God or a higher power, more than 60% expressed either disbelief or agnosticism and more than 30% expressed belief. More specifically, nearly 34% answered "I do not believe in God" and about 30% answered "I do not know if there is a God and there is no way to find out."[171] In the same study, 28% said they believed in God and 8% believed in a higher power that was not God.[172] Ecklund stated that scientists were often able to consider themselves spiritual without religion or belief in god.[173] Ecklund and Scheitle concluded, from their study, that the individuals from non-religious backgrounds disproportionately had self-selected into scientific professions and that the assumption that becoming a scientist necessarily leads to loss of religion is untenable since the study did not strongly support the idea that scientists had dropped religious identities due to their scientific training.[174] Instead, factors such as upbringing, age, and family size were significant influences on religious identification since those who had religious upbringing were more likely to be religious and those who had a non-religious upbringing were more likely to not be religious.[171][174][175] The authors also found little difference in religiosity between social and natural scientists.[175]
In terms of perceptions, most social and natural scientists from 21 American elite universities did not perceive conflict between science and religion, while 36.6% did. However, in the study, scientists who had experienced limited exposure to religion tended to perceive conflict.[6] In the same study they found that nearly one in five atheist scientists who are parents (17%) are part of religious congregations and have attended a religious service more than once in the past year. Some of the reasons for doing so are their scientific identity (wishing to expose their children to all sources of knowledge so they can make up their own minds), spousal influence, and desire for community.[176]
A 2009 report by the Pew Research Center found that members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) were "much less religious than the general public," with 51% believing in some form of deity or higher power. Specifically, 33% of those polled believe in God, 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power, and 41% did not believe in either God or a higher power.[177] 48% say they have a religious affiliation, equal to the number who say they are not affiliated with any religious tradition. 17% were atheists, 11% were agnostics, 20% were nothing in particular, 8% were Jewish, 10% were Catholic, 16% were Protestant, 4% were Evangelical, 10% were other religion. The survey also found younger scientists to be "substantially more likely than their older counterparts to say they believe in God". Among the surveyed fields, chemists were the most likely to say they believe in God.[168]
Elaine Ecklund conducted a study from 2011 to 2014 involving the general US population, including rank and file scientists, in collaboration with the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). The study noted that 76% of the scientists identified with a religious tradition. 85% of evangelical scientists had not doubts about the existence of God, compared to 35% of the whole scientific population. In terms of religion and science, 84.5% of evangelical scientists saw no conflict (72.5% collaboration, 12% independence), while 75.3% of the whole scientific population saw no conflict (40.4% collaboration, 34.9% independence).[178]
Religious beliefs of US professors were examined using a nationally representative sample of more than 1,400 professors. They found that in the social sciences: 23.4% did not believe in God, 16% did not know if God existed, 42.5% believed God existed, and 16% believed in a higher power. Out of the natural sciences: 19.5% did not believe in God, 32.9% did not know if God existed, 43.9% believed God existed, and 3.7% believed in a higher power. Overall, out of the whole study: 9.8% were atheists, 13.1% were agnostic, 19.2% believe in a higher power, 4.3% believe in God some of the time, 16.6% had doubts but believed in God, 34.9% believed in God and had no doubts.[179]
Farr Curlin, a University of Chicago Instructor in Medicine and a member of the MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics, noted in a study that doctors tend to be science-minded religious people. He helped author a study that "found that 76 percent of doctors believe in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife." and "90 percent of doctors in the United States attend religious services at least occasionally, compared to 81 percent of all adults." He reasoned, "The responsibility to care for those who are suffering and the rewards of helping those in need resonate throughout most religious traditions."[180]
Physicians in the United States, by contrast, are much more religious than scientists, with 76% stating a belief in God.[180]
UQ
Studies on scientists' beliefs
According to a study that was done by University of Nebraska–Lincoln in 1998, 60% of Nobel prize laureates in physics from 1901 to 1990 had a Christian background.[163] Since 1901-2013, 22% of all Nobel prizes have been awarded to Jews despite them being 0.2% of the world population.[164]
Many studies have been conducted in the United States and have generally found that scientists are less likely to believe in God than are the rest of the population. Precise definitions and statistics vary, with some studies concluding that about 1/3 of scientists in the USA are atheists, 1/3 agnostic, and 1/3 have some belief in God (although some might be deistic, for example).[61][165][166] This is in contrast to the more than roughly 3/4 of the general population that believe in some God in the United States. Other studies on scientific organizations like the AAAS show that 51% of their scientists believe in either God or a higher power and 48% having no religion.[167] Belief also varies slightly by field. Two surveys on physicists, geoscientists, biologists, mathematicians, and chemists have noted that, from those specializing in these fields, physicists had lowest percentage of belief in God (29%) while chemists had highest (41%).[165][168] Other studies show that among members of the National Academy of Sciences, concerning the existence of a personal god who answers prayer, 7.0% expressed belief, 72.2% expressed disbelief, and 20.8% were agnostic,[169] however Eugenie Scott argued that there are methodological issues in the study, including ambiguity in the questions. A study with clearer wording on leading scientists in the US, concluding that 40% of prominent scientists believe in a god.[170]
In 1916, 1,000 leading American scientists were randomly chosen from American Men of Science and 41.8% believed God existed, 41.5% disbelieved, and 16.7% had doubts/did not know; however when the study was replicated 80 years later using American Men and Women of Science in 1996, results were very much the same with 39.3% believing God exists, 45.3% disbelieved, and 14.5% had doubts/did not know.[61][165] In the same 1996 survey, scientists in the fields of biology, mathematics, and physics/astronomy, belief in a god that is "in intellectual and affective communication with humankind" was most popular among mathematicians (about 45%) and least popular among physicists (about 22%). In total, in terms of belief toward a personal god and personal immortality, about 60% of United States scientists in these fields expressed either disbelief or agnosticism and about 40% expressed belief.[165] This compared with 58% in 1914 and 67% in 1933.[citation needed]
A survey conducted between 2005 and 2007 by Elaine Howard Ecklund of University at Buffalo, The State University of New York on 1,646 natural and social science professors at 21 elite US research universities found that, in terms of belief in God or a higher power, more than 60% expressed either disbelief or agnosticism and more than 30% expressed belief. More specifically, nearly 34% answered "I do not believe in God" and about 30% answered "I do not know if there is a God and there is no way to find out."[171] In the same study, 28% said they believed in God and 8% believed in a higher power that was not God.[172] Ecklund stated that scientists were often able to consider themselves spiritual without religion or belief in god.[173] Ecklund and Scheitle concluded, from their study, that the individuals from non-religious backgrounds disproportionately had self-selected into scientific professions and that the assumption that becoming a scientist necessarily leads to loss of religion is untenable since the study did not strongly support the idea that scientists had dropped religious identities due to their scientific training.[174] Instead, factors such as upbringing, age, and family size were significant influences on religious identification since those who had religious upbringing were more likely to be religious and those who had a non-religious upbringing were more likely to not be religious.[171][174][175] The authors also found little difference in religiosity between social and natural scientists.[175]
In terms of perceptions, most social and natural scientists from 21 American elite universities did not perceive conflict between science and religion, while 36.6% did. However, in the study, scientists who had experienced limited exposure to religion tended to perceive conflict.[6] In the same study they found that nearly one in five atheist scientists who are parents (17%) are part of religious congregations and have attended a religious service more than once in the past year. Some of the reasons for doing so are their scientific identity (wishing to expose their children to all sources of knowledge so they can make up their own minds), spousal influence, and desire for community.[176]
A 2009 report by the Pew Research Center found that members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) were "much less religious than the general public," with 51% believing in some form of deity or higher power. Specifically, 33% of those polled believe in God, 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power, and 41% did not believe in either God or a higher power.[177] 48% say they have a religious affiliation, equal to the number who say they are not affiliated with any religious tradition. 17% were atheists, 11% were agnostics, 20% were nothing in particular, 8% were Jewish, 10% were Catholic, 16% were Protestant, 4% were Evangelical, 10% were other religion. The survey also found younger scientists to be "substantially more likely than their older counterparts to say they believe in God". Among the surveyed fields, chemists were the most likely to say they believe in God.[168]
Elaine Ecklund conducted a study from 2011 to 2014 involving the general US population, including rank and file scientists, in collaboration with the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). The study noted that 76% of the scientists identified with a religious tradition. 85% of evangelical scientists had not doubts about the existence of God, compared to 35% of the whole scientific population. In terms of religion and science, 84.5% of evangelical scientists saw no conflict (72.5% collaboration, 12% independence), while 75.3% of the whole scientific population saw no conflict (40.4% collaboration, 34.9% independence).[178]
Religious beliefs of US professors were examined using a nationally representative sample of more than 1,400 professors. They found that in the social sciences: 23.4% did not believe in God, 16% did not know if God existed, 42.5% believed God existed, and 16% believed in a higher power. Out of the natural sciences: 19.5% did not believe in God, 32.9% did not know if God existed, 43.9% believed God existed, and 3.7% believed in a higher power. Overall, out of the whole study: 9.8% were atheists, 13.1% were agnostic, 19.2% believe in a higher power, 4.3% believe in God some of the time, 16.6% had doubts but believed in God, 34.9% believed in God and had no doubts.[179]
Farr Curlin, a University of Chicago Instructor in Medicine and a member of the MacLean Center for Clinical Medical Ethics, noted in a study that doctors tend to be science-minded religious people. He helped author a study that "found that 76 percent of doctors believe in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife." and "90 percent of doctors in the United States attend religious services at least occasionally, compared to 81 percent of all adults." He reasoned, "The responsibility to care for those who are suffering and the rewards of helping those in need resonate throughout most religious traditions."[180]
Physicians in the United States, by contrast, are much more religious than scientists, with 76% stating a belief in God.[180]
UQ