Is day trading worth it?

[trickshot]

I add the ES because I daytrade ES. These are the real statistics for April. First every big move and the potential in each move, and in the next column the total potential of the day. As you can see there are every day a few big moves (bigger than 20 ticks). I don't call this dull days. If this are dull days, how much should the market move then? More than 25 points in each move? If you cannot make money in this market you have a big problem. Then the problem is not the market but YOU.
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The figures above confirm that there are many bigger moves than 10-20 ticks. Try to catch them is another problem, but that's the job for the trader. If he cannot catch anything he has to be blamed, not the "dull" market. 10 ticks is almost in every move just a small piece, that's why it is irrelevant. The real moves are relevant and much bigger.




My average profit per trade is more than 20 ticks which proofs that I don't go for small moves. I try to take the moves I showed above.

Don't get your panties in a bunch, I know there will always be tradeable days in a month, I did not dispute that, my objection was towards your claim that there will always be a few big moves everyday. That is definitely false unless you consider 5 point chop and the occasional 10 point move to be huge (good luck catching these moves though).

And I believe your data includes ETH range, RTH range is much smaller that, so I don't know why you chose to include those since we are talking about day trading here, or do you day trade 24 hours a day?

 

[dbphoenix]

Don't get your panties in a bunch, I know there will always be tradeable days in a month, I did not dispute that, my objection was towards your claim that there will always be a few big moves everyday. That is definitely false unless you consider 5 point chop and the occasional 10 point move to be huge (good luck catching these moves though).

And I believe your data includes ETH range, RTH range is much smaller that, so I don't know why you chose to include those since we are talking about day trading here, or do you day trade 24 hours a day?

All of these ranges affect intraday moves. It isn't as if experienced traders aren't aware that these ranges -- with the high and low and midpoints -- aren't there.

 

[marketsurfer]

English language is only the third language I speak. This means that sometimes maybe I understand wrong what is written. So I want to apoligize for the misunderstanding, it was not on purpose.

For instance this sentence is already difficult for me to interprete correctly as this is not the english I learned:
What's up with the gonzo hostility vibe?

Never heard before from "Gonzo".
"Slim Jim chart entries." Never heard from these charts before too. Interpreted this as negative because of previous discussions.

understood, thank you

 

[trickshot]

All of these ranges affect intraday moves. It isn't as if experienced traders aren't aware that these ranges -- with the high and low and midpoints -- aren't there.

My beef is with him claiming that there are a few big moves everyday, thats just patently false. If you look at the statistics he provided, its clear that most days don't see a range thats greater than 15 points on the ES, the RTH range is probably far lower than that, probably 60% or less.

 

[dbphoenix]

My beef is with him claiming that there are a few big moves everyday, thats just patently false. If you look at the statistics he provided, its clear that most days don't see a range thats greater than 15 points on the ES, the RTH range is probably far lower than that, probably 60% or less.

15pts is not too shabby. That translates into 37.5 on the NQ, which is not too shabby either.

Whether or not one is able to take advantage of whatever moves occur, regardless of how one defines "big", depends entirely on one's trading plan. If one can't recognize a range in real time, much less trade it, then whatever trades are claimed will be assumed to be lies and the entire process a mystery.

On the other hand, if one takes the time to characterize one's market -- which is rare -- and to develop a robust trading plan -- which is even more rare -- he will find that the mystery evaporates, and he can then begin to profit from price moves, large or small.

 

[trickshot]

15pts is not too shabby. That translates into 37.5 on the NQ, which is not too shabby either.

Whether or not one is able to take advantage of whatever moves occur, regardless of how one defines "big", depends entirely on one's trading plan. If one can't recognize a range in real time, much less trade it, then whatever trades are claimed will be assumed to be lies and the entire process a mystery.

On the other hand, if one takes the time to characterize one's market -- which is rare -- and to develop a robust trading plan -- which is even more rare -- he will find that the mystery evaporates, and he can then begin to profit from price moves, large or small.

I agree that 15 points isn't so bad but only if its not the only move of the day and its RTH range.
Look here I'm not trying to say that day trading sucks and nobody can make money day trading, my stand has always been its dependent on what the market is willing to give you. I stopped day trading for a few years to focus on my start up (partnership) and I just got back into day trading recently, but I only did so because I noticed there was elevated volatility in the DAX and the Hang Seng, been killing it trading those products in the last 2 months. I know a guy who made nearly 200% of his account (6 figure account) day trading the hang seng alone in the last 2 months, and he traded no more than 2 contracts each time so he wasn't taking on crazy leverage.

I'm a firm believer of volatility = range = profit potential, traders need volatility to thrive, there is no way to get around this unless your strategy is one of the pennies/steamroller variant.

 

[dbphoenix]

I agree that 15 points isn't so bad but only if its not the only move of the day and its RTH range.

Assuming that one has a robust trading plan and follows it, what remains is size. There need be only one qualifying move that day.

 

[jimmiebarton]

I find that I agree with dbphoenix in this regard. I don't believe that there really is noise, only price action that isn't at or near levels that you have predefined. I found that trying to decipher "trending" action vs. "chop" or "noise" was the number one reason why I would bail on a trade WAY too early, and end up missing my original target. If you believe in your analysis, and you have at least some degree of confidence that you know what you are doing, my belief is that you get in where you want to enter, and get out where you plan to exit. Maybe the "noise" is simply a breather before going to my intended target, but I usually just end up stressing myself out and adding unnecessary fear by trying to figure out halfway through a trade if it's somehow going to magically fail before my target and take me out.

there is such a thing as 'noise'. noise results from such practice of disingenuous trading of quote stuffing, spoofing etc. to manipulate price. algo's create noise and push a market toward randomness, not other way around. where every tick is fCked, ie pounced upon and bandied about like a tennis ball, the markerts deconstruct

 

[dbphoenix]

there is such a thing as 'noise'. noise results from such practice of disingenuous trading of quote stuffing, spoofing etc. to manipulate price. algo's create noise and push a market toward randomness, not other way around. where every tick is fCked, ie pounced upon and bandied about like a tennis ball, the markerts deconstruct

All of which provides information, if one understands what's going on. Therefore, it isn't noise.

 

[jimmiebarton]

All of which provides information, if one understands what's going on. Therefore, it isn't noise.

not information, it is DIS-information, that's your NOISE