Is day trading worth it?

[austinp]

to earn more than most in any profession you need an edge obviously. i doubt that many who earn well really are even aware they have the "edge" so many here talk of...they just are too busy going forward doing better than others around them.

i have said here before, despite what others here say about success rates; to actually out earn your needs imo is worth the hard work and luck to find that so called edge.

The overall "edge" is actually so simplistic, most of the failed traders here cannot possibly grasp how plainly simple the factors for "success" actually are. If laid out right in front of them as a trading plan, about all the failed traders would reply, "that's it? Nah... cannot be that simple. There must be more complexity to things than that."

Double-barrel guarantee that's the overall herd response.

 

[Alpha Trader]

Evolve towards swing trading which allows more freedom time-wise, more time to make decisions and is much less commission-intensive. Plus larger moves make more sense to me.

Cornix, you are right on all the above. The only time that day trading reigns over all else is the R:R that it provides...........and this one thing makes a huge difference in your PnL.

 

[Alpha Trader]

Higher frequency of trading give more opportunity to explot the edge and make more money.

Actually, higher frequency of trading tends to wash most traders out (bar the most refined and experienced scalpers). I trade equities and only trade 5-8 times a day, but these setups are extremely high probability setups that I have back tested & forward tested over the years. Both the low number of trades and the probability advantage make a need for me to get in with volume.

Problem is, practically nobody here has an edge, so whether 'swing trading' or 'daytrading', you'll lose either way in the long run.

False. Look past the noise and you will be able to notice the small number of traders on here that make a decent living. The key word here is "small number". Most traders that are successful, tend to be busy tweaking and refining their skills and hence tend not to get tangled in a war of words.

There's a trader on trade2win called 'dowjones' who posts his statements who seems to one of the few with a genuine edge. Seems to trade about 50 times per day on the dax making a good few K per day.
Probably doesn't use charts/TA ect

Observe the following trades and you will probably notice that TA is huge! A few examples include breakouts/breakdowns, support/resistance, TL touches/breaches etc.

(but don't tend to let us know what they DO use! )

SOME successful traders will not reveal their edge for fear that if enough is traded with that edge, algos will pick on that and trade against it. I do not have an opinion on this as I am not sure if that is true; it is something that has just come up in discussion with other traders.

Look at the PNL thread nowadays compared to years gone by. Basically nobody is making money.

Those that have a true edge are on their way to creating black-boxes mimicking their methods and they are on their way to only making more.

 

[dbphoenix]

The overall "edge" is actually so simplistic, most of the failed traders here cannot possibly grasp how plainly simple the factors for "success" actually are. If laid out right in front of them as a trading plan, about all the failed traders would reply, "that's it? Nah... cannot be that simple. There must be more complexity to things than that."

Double-barrel guarantee that's the overall herd response.

So true. Which is why this thread keeps getting bumped.

Do we get cake when it hits 2000?

 

[hitchslap]

vendor talk. Don't listen to people trying to sell you courses/subscriptions/E-books etc.

You need an edge:
examples:
.The very best technology in the world (e.g. working at GETCO with super low latency)
.Seeing customer order flow (e.g. working at a big bank)
.Market making a product with a wide bid/ask spread (e.g. options market making at SIG)
.Having a deep understanding of a market with good connections to gain specialized information (e.g. distressed debt trading at DE Shaw)

 

[Alpha Trader]

the market can do three things, up, down or range, once you determine that in your timeframe or timeframes of choice the rest is following a plan.

+1

yes it's a long road to making it, but it's not a pipe dream, and anyone that has not tasted consistent success should refrain from calling success particularly in index futures, impossible to attain.

+1

..........only time i think about them is when i read public boards.

+1

fact is, understanding what needs to be done is an extremely long road, full of scars, sweat and even tears, one not only has to overcome that but in the end have the same will you had from day 1, and sometimes even more

+100

 

[tiddlywinks]

Cornix, you are right on all the above. The only time that day trading reigns over all else is the R:R that it provides...........and this one thing makes a huge difference in your PnL.

The R:R you mention can also be assimilated (alternatively or in addition) with duration risk... time spent holding positions.

Previously someone mentioned 10 contracts with a couple tics profit each for 20 tics profit as a daytrade vs 2 contracts for 10 tics profit each for (the same) 20 tics profit as a swing trade. Assuming appropriate money management in both cases, Beta on a daytrade would be "much better" than a swing trade if for no other reason the duration of the trade.

 

[Alpha Trader]

With a job you have consistent income even if you have a bad day.

Trading IS a job. It will only become a job if you are consistent.

"There's a great quote by Julius Irving that went, 'Being a professional is doing the things you love to do, on the days you don't feel like doing them."

 

[Alpha Trader]

this site must have the most inappropriate adjective for its content

 

[Alpha Trader]

As for running a higher leverage day trade vs a lower one with a swing trade? If you're holding 10 lots in a day trade that you cash out with +2 tick, you make a +20 tick gain. For someone with 2 lots in a swing trade but take home +10 ticks, they take home +20 tick gain. Same or more money with less leverage.

The above example holds true, except that the time value has been ignored.

Both will make +20 tick gain, but the day trader does it over a single day, the swing trader may do it over 10 days. If so, the swing trader makes a gain of +2 ticks a day.

Swing traders are not inferior to day traders.

True. I have seen each do amazingly well within their own time frames.

In fact, day traders fear the most because they fear market risk from overnight events.

Day traders would choose to call this negation of risk over fear.

Actually, overnight events often present the best opportunities. There are times when overnight markets gap leading to substantial gains that you can't hope to realize and catch during a day trade in normal trading hours.

The opposite would also hold true leading to substantial loss.