Yes. So with all the mentoring here on ET, it would be interesting to know if any of the mentors or students are actually killing it.
Probably some are, but likely not in public. ET has a lot of action "under the surface".
Is day trading worth it?
- Thread starter Laissez Faire
- Start date
Probably some are, but likely not in public. ET has a lot of action "under the surface".
Was it less stressful for the swing trader long 40 Es on 9/11/01 ?
You can't be a fair weather trader. This is either a hobby or a career. The hobbyists eventually get bored, broke and eventually leave the game. The career trader immerses themself 100% completely into the markets and does whatever it takes to become successful. Often that means sacrificing things in order to get to where you want to be in trading. If your not 100% serious and willing to do whatever it takes then you should not even waste your time or money. Most people need structure and that is why they fail at trading.
When the market is trending it makes swing traders look glorious, when it changes they have hell adjusting.
To me swing trading is almost a crutch for being afraid to take a loss.
If you swing you have to use larger stops so to keep your r:r the same the objective has to be wider.
If you start moving size, how will it affect your sleep at night knowing market may gap against you if not trading futures ?
Even with futures you open yourself up to risk of news when globex is closed.
All of this boils down to your personality type and appetite for risk. The only way you will ever find out what works for you is through trial and error. Good luck with your journey.
To answer the question actually posed in the thread, I think it CAN be worth it but it really depends on the personality and their goals.
For me, the jury is still out. I had my best year trading the ES in 2013. 2014 is shaping up to be better than that. That being said, I don't feel any more satisfied as a person and I don't feel happier now that the account is finally (after nearly 5.5 years) swelling. I've never been motivated by money, and "success" in trading can be bittersweet.
What I mean specifically is this: What I think I was searching for over the years was nothing more than ego validation. Not validation that I could make money (since I can do that doing other things), but validation that my trading decisions were the correct ones over and over and over again. Now that see that being wrong all the time is part of the game, it's left me feeling a bit......empty. On days that I have some of my best profits, I find myself sitting at lunch feeling alone and a out of sorts. I guess the fantasy in my head was that eventually I would make 2 trades a day, both winners, pat myself on the back, and then go and enjoy my day. The reality has not been even close to that...
Also, for some reason, the more money I make in shorter amounts of time, the more isolated from the general population I feel. I'm not sure if this is the type of response that you were looking for, but it is what I am going through at the moment. Thoughts?
For me, the jury is still out. I had my best year trading the ES in 2013. 2014 is shaping up to be better than that. That being said, I don't feel any more satisfied as a person and I don't feel happier now that the account is finally (after nearly 5.5 years) swelling. I've never been motivated by money, and "success" in trading can be bittersweet.
What I mean specifically is this: What I think I was searching for over the years was nothing more than ego validation. Not validation that I could make money (since I can do that doing other things), but validation that my trading decisions were the correct ones over and over and over again. Now that see that being wrong all the time is part of the game, it's left me feeling a bit......empty. On days that I have some of my best profits, I find myself sitting at lunch feeling alone and a out of sorts. I guess the fantasy in my head was that eventually I would make 2 trades a day, both winners, pat myself on the back, and then go and enjoy my day. The reality has not been even close to that...
Also, for some reason, the more money I make in shorter amounts of time, the more isolated from the general population I feel. I'm not sure if this is the type of response that you were looking for, but it is what I am going through at the moment. Thoughts?
At the risk of sounding 80s, don't confuse what you do with who you are. Trade, take the money, then go do something that actually matters.
Not quite sure I agree.
I've heard many reports of people who failed or did worse as full-time traders, but have done very well swing trading on the side.
In fact, I think you're more prone to become bored, if the markets is your only focus.
One could also argue that if you're not in a position where you HAVE to make money, you will trade in a more relaxed and less forced manner. When I had a job, I could go weeks and even a month (s) without a position, since I didn't have to trade.
You are however right that one needs to be serious and 100% focused.
Well, the same can be said about day trading. Markets are ever changing, regardless of what time frame you're trading.
Swing trading is not necessarily trend trading, no?
How is swing trading a crutch for not taking a loss? Not sure if that sentence makes sense to me.
When I swing traded, all stops were submitting outside market hours. No micro-managing after the trade was on. As a day trader, I more than once moved my initial stop, only to get stopped out for a much larger loss. I've heard of other people who've done the same thing.
What you're saying about risk is true though. Market shocks do happen from time to time.
But they also happen for a day trader. I remember a brutal move in crude oil just before I stopped watching the markets. Can't say for sure the extent, but it was something like 3 dollars in a minute or so. I imagine that a lot of day traders got hurt there.
Then there's the flash crash and the mini flash crash.
Even with a stop in place, you'll surely have a nice slippage.
Thanks for your input and good wishes.
Are you still killing it day trading the ES?
Thanks for explaining the bittersweet aspect of trading, as well as the feeling of isolation from the general population due to the money. You have started to articulate this well. Feel free to tell more about it.
I wish I could elaborate more. It's hard to formulate but you will know the feeling when you have it. I think it boils down to your brain's perception of how money is earned. For me it has almost always meant hard work, or at the very least the completion of a project or the feeling of a job well done. Making a substantial amount of money on a stop entry based on your original trade being COMPLETELY DEAD WRONG is a very weird thing to accept. I wonder how long it will take (if ever) to be comfortable with it.
And for full disclosure, I am not killing it, but I'm making money that most people would deem a comfortable living. I don't plan on making any type of regular withdrawals from my trading account, so the balance might as well be SIM at this point.
Yes, that does happen sometimes. You'll see a triangle and the breakout will fail, and it will morph into a larger triangle, or turn into chop, or something else.
But it's not just that. Pointing out triangles after the fact is nice but it assumes you have a trading plan that can catch enough of the profitable ones and avoid enough of the unprofitable ones.
For example, Nodoji yesterday mentioned that if there is little or no space between the breakout and the pullback to the breakout level, there is nothing to do. That what you want to do on a good breakout is enter on a pullback to the breakout level, or possibly trail a buy/sell stop on pullback bars if the R:R is acceptable.
Case in point: on Monday nodoji said that CL offered four profitable triangle trades in the pit session. Let's look at them.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?p=3956512#post3956512
chart: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=144592&d=1395718103
Triangle 1: This is a strong breakout that doesn't retrace right away. So there's no pb to the breakout level.
Triangle 2: This is another very strong breakout. There is no space between the initial small breakout and pullback bar so no trade there. Then it just runs off to the races with no pb to the breakout level.
Triangle 3: I wouldn't consider this a triangle because it does not have 2 clear swing points ascending, a requirement listed in ND's triangle description yesterday.
Triangle 4: Again, another one with no valid pullback to breakout level entry.
So potentially these 4 "profitable trades" could result in no valid trade signals at all for some people.
Now, some people could say that Tri #1 did retrace to it's b/o level 30 minutes later, and that would be a valid trade short with a tight stop. Ok fair enough. But by the same token, Tri #2 also retraced to it's b/o level an hour later. Taking that trade with the same tight stop might get you chopped out, or could have been a profit with a wider stop. But Tri #3 also retraced to it's b/o level over an hour later, which would have resulted in a loss.
Now look at Tuesdays chart:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=144625&d=1395781577
Tri 1: no pb to breakout level
Tri 2: no pb to breakout level
Tri 3: doesn't look like a valid tri (needs 2 swing points top and bottom)
Tri 4: looks like a profitable trade
So my point is, what looks like easy profitable trades in hindsight is not so simple in real time. and this is just two days.... out of 200+ in a year. This is why I say what looks good in hindsight is not so easy once you try to hammer out solid rules to exploit it. Not to mention, the more rules you have and the more limiting conditions you add, the more thinking you have to do before entering a trade on an extremely fast 1 minute chart where there is no time for thinking!
This is an example of why I say I could never find a way to make significant profit using these type of patterns. It was a grind it out for peanuts exercise.
I will also add that on the Monday chart, it doesn't show enough of the premkt action, but price could have been inside a triangle as the pit opened. Tri high starting at 8:38 ET high and low starting at 8:53 ET low.
That tri had a b/o long around 9:23 which fizzled out after 13 ticks run. Then fell back inside the tri, and had b/o short at 10:08, which fizzled after 10 ticks.
So someone might not have even seen Tri #1 labeled on the Monday chart because they would have been using this tri I mentioned.
I am guessing that this sort of thing is what other people are getting at when they say it isn't as easy as it is often made to seem.
That tri had a b/o long around 9:23 which fizzled out after 13 ticks run. Then fell back inside the tri, and had b/o short at 10:08, which fizzled after 10 ticks.
So someone might not have even seen Tri #1 labeled on the Monday chart because they would have been using this tri I mentioned.
I am guessing that this sort of thing is what other people are getting at when they say it isn't as easy as it is often made to seem.