Is Capital Punishment ever justified?

[hapaboy]

how do you justify it? Being against the war means, among other things, that you were in favor of perpetuating Saddam's regime where innocent Iraqis were murdered, tortured, raped, and imprisoned on a daily basis. You didn't give a rat's ass about them, but now you care if the worst offenders of that regime lose their lives?

 

[ElCubano]

Quote from hapaboy:



So what's up with this lizard brain crap? Better watch your ass or I'll sick quickTrader on you!

JK....u are one of the smart ones...a lil stubborn but hey what can I say...peace

 

[msfe]

Pull the Plug

By BOB HERBERT


Delma Banks Jr. had eaten his last meal and, in a controlled panic, was starting to count off the final 10 minutes of his life when word came last March 12 that his execution was being postponed because the Supreme Court might want to review his case.

Last Monday the court decided that yes, it would hear Mr. Banks's appeal. This should throw a brighter spotlight on a case that embodies many of the important things that are wrong with the death penalty in the United States.

Here are just some of the problems. There is no good evidence that Mr. Banks, who was accused of killing a 16-year-old boy in a small town in Texas in 1980, is guilty. A complete reading of the record, including facts uncovered during his appeals, shows that he is most likely innocent.

There is irrefutable evidence of gross prosecutorial misconduct. The key witnesses against Mr. Banks were hard-core drug addicts who had much to gain from lying. One was a paid informer, and the other was a career felon who was told that a pending arson charge would be dropped if he performed "well" while testifying against Mr. Banks. The special incentives given to the two men for their testimony were improperly concealed by prosecutors. Both witnesses have since recanted.

And, as in so many capital cases, the race issue runs through this one like a fatal virus. Mr. Banks, who had no prior criminal record and has steadfastly proclaimed his innocence, is black. The victim, the prosecutors and all the carefully selected jurors were white.

It is time to pull the plug on the death penalty in the United States. Shut it down. It is never going to work properly. There are too many passions and prejudices involved (and far too many incompetent lawyers, prosecutors, judges and jurors) for it to ever be administered with any consistent degree of fairness and justice.

A Columbia University study released last year documented extraordinarily high percentages of death penalty cases that had been tainted by "egregiously incompetent" defense lawyers, by police officers and prosecutors who had suppressed exculpatory evidence, by jurors who had been misinformed about the law, and by judges and jurors who were biased.

A study on race and the death penalty in the U.S. that is being released today by Amnesty International notes the following:

"Since 1976, blacks have been six to seven times more likely to be murdered than whites, with the result that blacks and whites are the victims of murder in about equal numbers. Yet 80 percent of the more than 840 people put to death in the U.S.A. since 1976 were convicted of crimes involving white victims, compared to the 13 percent who were convicted of killing blacks."

The Amnesty report asserts, correctly, that studies have consistently found that the criminal justice system "places a higher value on white life than on black life."

The mishandling of the Banks case by local prosecutors led three former federal judges, including William Sessions, a former director of the F.B.I., to urge the Supreme Court to intervene and block the execution. "The questions presented in Mr. Banks's petition directly implicate the integrity of the administration of the death penalty in this country," the judges wrote in a friend-of-the-court brief. "The prosecutors in this case concealed important impeachment material from the defense. In addition, the district court found, and the court of appeals agreed, that Mr. Banks received ineffective assistance from his lawyer, at least in the penalty phase of his trial."

None of these issues mattered to the state of Texas, which was ready and oh-so-willing to kill this man at 6 p.m. on March 12, and is still ready and willing to do so.

When state officials have no qualms about executing people even though there are clear doubts about their guilt and about whether they have been treated fairly by the justice system, it's time to bring the curtain down on their ability to execute anyone.

The Supreme Court will examine just a few very specific aspects of the Banks case. It will not, for example, address the race issue. But the death penalty is a rotten edifice, and you will find terrible problems no matter where you look.

Lying witnesses. Lousy lawyers. Corrupt prosecutors. Racism.

The death penalty is broken and can't be fixed. Get rid of it.   

 

[hapaboy]

Fine. Review Banks' case. No argument against that.

Abolish the death penalty though? Uh-uh.

I'd say the following got their just reward:

A convicted burglar, arsonist and rapist was executed Tuesday for fatally slashing and stabbing a disabled woman in Houston less than a month after he got out of prison.

Richard Head Williams was contrite and took responsibility for his crimes in a final statement. Looking at three brothers of his victim, he said: "I'm sorry I caused what happened to your sister. I apologize."
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Keith Clay - executed in March for murdering a convenience store clerk who had moved from India a year earlier. Clay's haul? $2,000.

Clay was an acknowledged former drug dealer who authorities said also was involved in a triple slaying in 1993.

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Yesterday - A convicted killer believed responsible for at least a dozen slayings over a five-month period while on parole was executed for one of five murders authorities said he committed on a single bloody night in Dallas eight years ago.

Juan Rodriguez Chavez, 34, who had earned the nickname "The Thrill Killer" for the random attacks was smiling and grinning broadly as his mother, a brother and a sister came into the death chamber to watch him die.

"To the media, I would like for you to tell all the victims and their loved ones that I am truly, truly sorry for taking their loved ones' lives," Chavez said in a brief and apologetic final statement. "I am a different person now but that does not change the fact of the bad things I have committed."

Jason January, one of the Dallas County district attorneys who prosecuted Chavez, said Chavez's nickname fit.

"He was truly a living breathing killing machine...," January said. "He was one of the few people I dealt with in 15 years with the DA's office that clearly demonstrated he enjoyed killing."
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The world's a far better place without them. Not only are they not taking up any more of our tax money, but most important of all they will never harm anyone again.

 

[dgabriel]

When Governor Ryan said he will not approve any more executions until this review of the administration of the death penalty is completed, he said further:

"Until I can be sure that everyone sentenced to death in Illinois is truly guilty, until I can be sure with moral certainty that no innocent man or woman is facing a lethal injection, no one will meet that fate," Governor Ryan said. "I am a strong proponent of tough criminal penalties, of supporting laws and programs to help police and prosecutors keep dangerous criminals off the streets. We must ensure the public safety of our citizens but, in doing so, we must ensure that the ends of justice are served."

While noting that the General Assembly, the Illinois Attorney General and the Illinois Supreme Court are all studying the death penalty issue and issuing reports and recommendations, Governor Ryan said more review and debate is critical.

"As Governor, I am ultimately responsible, and although I respect all that these leaders have done and I will consider all that they say, I believe that a public dialogue must begin on the question of the fairness of the application of the death penalty in Illinois," Governor Ryan said.

 

[hapaboy]

Do you really understand what Ryan did, dGAB?

Juries filled with Illinois citizens convicted and sentenced murderers to die. They did so because the death penalty is a part of Illinois law. It is a part of Illinois law because officials elected by the citizens of Illinois put it there.

By commuting the sentences of these murderers Ryan literally took the law into his own hands and told the majority of the citizens of Illinois that their votes on issues don't mean jack squat.

Furthermore, three men received reduced sentences that could allow them to be released shortly! That makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? Good grief, we read over and over about murderers released from prison who kill again - if any of these three, or others down the line who may be released, kill or harm another human being, Ryan will have their blood on his hands.

If there's an issue about a particular criminal's case, appeal procedures are in place. To give a blanket commutation, a "one size fits all" decree, was abominable. The new governor of Illinois said Ryan made a mistake in commuting the sentences.

Just two of the cases affected by Ryan's commutation:

--Debra Evans and two of her children were slaughtered, and a nearly full-term fetus was cut from Evans' womb in the process.

--6-year old Shenosha Richard was lured to a couple's apartment where she was sexually assaulted with a shoe polish applicator and a hammer, and then beaten with the hammer until her skull was pulverized. As if that wasn't enough, she was also strangled.

Yeah, the perpetrators of those acts really deserve to be breathing the same air we do, living off our tax money, and enjoying the luxuries of prison life while their victims rot away.

If you can still gloat over Ryan's "victory" after researching the crimes in question, dGAB, you're colder than I thought.

 

[dgabriel]

I suppose some of us are willing to send innocents to death in the process of sending the guilty to death. To sacrifice the innocent in the rabid mouth frothing quest to deal death to the guilty to serve justice to the innocent victims is bizarre, emotionally blind, unintelligent, myopic, morally and ethically deficient.

An ethical discussion cannot be founded upon a hypothetical. Ethics deal with acts. The facts are innocent people have been placed on death row and executed. Deal with that.

Arguing for the death penalty in hypothetical 100% certain cases of guilt ignores the uncertainties of the real world.

The unending quest to seek a neat fit in fantasy shows a failure to reckon with reality and perhaps indicates other personal failures.

Go back to the Cartoon Network.

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from dgabriel:

I suppose some of us are willing to send innocents to death in the process of sending the guilty to death. To sacrifice the innocent in the rabid mouth frothing quest to deal death to the guilty to serve justice to the innocent victims is bizarre, emotionally blind, unintelligent, myopic, morally and ethically deficient.

An ethical discussion cannot be founded upon a hypothetical. Ethics deal with acts. The facts are innocent people have been placed on death row and executed. Deal with that.

Arguing for the death penalty in hypothetical 100% certain cases of guilt ignores the uncertainties of the real world.

The unending quest to seek a neat fit in fantasy shows a failure to reckon with reality and perhaps indicates other personal failures.

Go back to the Cartoon Network.

Heh-heh! dGAB does his jack-in-the-box act yet again, popping out of his fantasy world to utter his particular brand of gibberish!

"neat fit"? It is you who are looking for such an answer with your blanket termination of capital punishment, whereas I have stated support for review of cases.

Please state the names and incidents of the "innocent people" who have been placed on death row and executed.

The facts are that murderers have been released and murdered again. This is undeniable, and it has occured hundreds if of times, if not more. You can't tell me a similar number of "innocent" people have been placed on death row and executed. Deal with that.

The simple fact, dGAB, is that you and those like you are far more concerned with the rights of murderers than you are for the victims. You can hide behind your delusions of compassion and simplistic rationale of rising above base venegeance, but at the end of the day you are telling the victims and their families that their lives don't mean shit. Meanwhile, to the worst elements of our society you are stating that regardless how horrific their crimes are or how much suffering they cause, the worst that can happen is that they'll be confined, fed three times a day, given medical care, have tons of time to lift weights and watch TV, and still have access to drugs, cigarettes, and other vices.

Oh, and it'll all be paid for by Johnny Taxpayer to the tune of $30,000 - $40,000 per year per prisoner.

Now THAT is "bizarre, emotionally blind, unintelligent, myopic, morally and ethically deficient."

You need to go back to ragging on Bush and praying for a quagmire for our forces in Iraq. I know that would really make you the happiest "moderator" on ET.

As far as your "perhaps indicates other personal failures" statement, all I can say in my defense is that at least I know of two people who are unequivocally bigger failures than I: the unfortunate couple that spawned you.

 

[msfe]

Amnesty finds race factor in US death sentences

Julian Borger in Washington
Friday April 25, 2003

Statistical evidence from the United States suggests that black defendants convicted of killing whites have been sentenced to death 15 times more often than white defendants convicted of killing blacks, according to a study published by Amnesty International yesterday.

The survey, based largely on recent investigations carried out by individual states, suggests that race remains a powerful factor when American juries decide whether to send convicts to death row, but that the race of the victim is often more important than the race of the murderer.

According to the Amnesty report - entitled Death by discrimination: the continuing role of race in capital cases - blacks and whites have been the victims of murder in roughly equal numbers since 1976.

"Yet, 80% of the more than 840 people put to death in the USA since 1976 were convicted of crimes involving white victims, compared to the 13% who were convicted of killing blacks," says the report. It went on to say that some 200 African-Americans were executed for the murder of white victims in the period: "15 times as many as the number of whites put to death for killing blacks, and at least twice as many as the number of blacks executed for the murder of other blacks."

Concern over racial disparities in the imposition of the death penalty has led to a string of reviews in recent years, but the Bush administration has contested their findings. While governor of Texas, President Bush himself presided over a record number of executions.

The attorney general, John Ashcroft, has said there was "no evidence of racial bias" in federal death penalty cases, despite the conclusions of a study commissioned by his predecessor, Janet Reno, which found that 80% of defendants who faced capital charges in federal cases nationwide were members of minorities.

Since coming to office, Mr Ashcroft has overruled federal prosecutors 28 times, forcing them to pursue death sen tences in cases that prosecutors had initially decided did not merit them. Of these 28 defendants, 26 were from minorities.

The justice department said Mr Ashcroft was unaware of the race of the defendants when he reviewed their cases.

Kate Allen, Amnesty International's UK director, said that if Mr Bush was truly committed to equal justice he should call an "immediate halt" to executions.

"At least one in five of African-Americans executed since 1977, and a quarter of the blacks put to death for killing whites, were tried in front of all-white juries," she added.

George Kendall, a lawyer for legal defence fund of the National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People, said the role of local prosecutors was even more important.

"The local district attorney in America has more power than any other elected official. He's got no boss. He decides who to charge and how to charge them. [An] overwhelming number of DAs are white," he said.

 

[hapaboy]

Regarding racism in capital punishment:

According to the Bureau of Justice, blacks committed 51.5% of murders between 1976 and 1999, while whites committed 46.5%. Yet even though blacks committed a majority of murders,the Bureau of Justice Statistics reports: "Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, white inmates have made up the majority of those under sentence of death." Whites continued to comprise the majority on death row in the year 2000 (1,990 whites to 1,535 blacks and 68 others). In the year 2000, 49 of the 85 people actually put to death were whites.

Research it, and try to prove me wrong. Go to the BOJ web site and see for yourself.

Furthermore, white people are killed by black people 2.6 times more frequently than black people are killed by white people.

Finally, black males between 14 and 24 years of age, a segment that represents only 1% of the entire population, committed approximately 30% of the nation's murders in the 1990's.

http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/clegg061101.shtml

I'm really sick of this whole racism argument. Like it's a monstrous conspiracy somehow to kill a few more black people than white people.

Heck, I may as well rail about the fact that the majority of professional basketball players are black! Why aren't there more white players? How come there are only a couple of Asian players and a couple of Hispanics or South Americans? What's up with that? You mean to tell me it's all based on an individual's actions? His skill? But, but,........but......that's not FAIR!!