Is Capital Punishment ever justified?

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:


Right now it is "beyond a reasonable doubt." People do get convicted of murder when no one saw them do the crime, but the circumstances are just overwhelming that they did it. If the act was not caught on video, or there was no DNA evidence or something, I would not give the person the death penalty. Keep in mind, I did say that I am not hugely in favor of the death penalty. Like metooxx said, when you're wrong you can't bring dead people back. That is a possibility that should not be overlooked. I'm like 51/49 in favor of the death penalty (when there is no doubt, not just "beyond a reasonable doubt"). Maybe in a few years I will be 51/49 against it.

Before DNA became accepted as proof, people were executed that would have been exonerated with the DNA evidence standards of collection and presentation used today.

Imagine in the future it is possible to have a lie detector that is 100% accurate or other scientific advances that would reveal the truth.

Why kill someone because we admit we lack the scientific evidence to convict with 100% certainty, not just guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Why leave a life or death decision to fallible human beings, if something scientific may be developed that will eliminate any doubt.

Reasonable doubt doesn't mean 100% certainty, and that is the problem. It is insufficient in some cases to justify the death penalty.

You are the worshiper of science, has science come to the end of the road in forensic evidence gathering and determining whether or not people are telling the truth?

Wouldn't it be nice to know if not only the accused is telling the truth, but those who are acting as witnesses against the defendent are telling the 100% truth?

Many men and women have gone to their death on the basis of an eyewitness, someone who was not proven to be telling the truth.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

777,

Great points. I do agree with you here. I do not think we should give people the death penalty unless we are certain. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is NOT sufficient, IMO, to give someone the death penalty. We are in agreement here.

Here is where we differ:

Say I am at a bank with my mother. It is a nice sunny day. A man comes over and shoots my mother with a gun right in front of me and she dies. Say I immediately whack the guy in the face with a baseball bat and knock him out. I tie him up and wait for the police to arrive. 50 people see the entire scene take place, including me. His fingerprints are all over the gun and bullets. Everything was caught on the bank's video cameras. The gun is registered to him. Say later he also even ADMITS to doing the crime. Are you going to tell me that this is not an instance where the death penalty could be applied?

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

777,

Great points. I do agree with you here. I do not think we should give people the death penalty unless we are certain. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" is NOT sufficient, IMO, to give someone the death penalty. We are in agreement here.

Here is where we differ:

Say I am at a bank with my mother. It is a nice sunny day. A man comes over and shoots my mother with a gun right in front of me and she dies. Say I immediately whack the guy in the face with a baseball bat and knock him out. I tie him up and wait for the police to arrive. 50 people see the entire scene take place, including me. His fingerprints are all over the gun and bullets. Everything was caught on the bank's video cameras. The gun is registered to him. Say later he also even ADMITS to doing the crime. Are you going to tell me that this is not an instance where the death penalty could be applied?

No, it is a fundamental issue with me, I could not give him the death penalty personally.

Is the death penalty right or wrong? I can only really say for me, that I could not pull the switch out of logic and reason.

I am sure in the heat of the emotions of the moment, I could likely kill him if I were at the scene, but in the coolness of reason when the emotions settle.....no I could not have him killed as long as life without parole is an option. In my opinion, confinement for life is worse than death.

I don't believe I have the moral and rational right to make that decision to terminate another human life, unless the killing is an action of self defense or an act of a moral and just war.

Others feel differently, and it is difficult to argue with them if they can't get beyond their emotional responses to wanting to kill an offender.

I just know, that for me, it is morally wrong to kill anyone outside of self defense (including defending my family or others) or in a moral and just war.

The death penalty is punishment, and death doesn't punish, it liberates one from life. Let the killers live a miserable life in a confined space with no chance ever for freedom from that situation.

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from dgabriel:

Drug Dealers, Murderers, Rapists, Child Molesters. Is that all? Are you sure there is no other category of criminal that you'd like to have whacked? How have you selected these groups, by the viciousness of thier crime, thier moral repugnance, or their corrosive and destructive effect?

Those are the 4 most heinous crimes, in my opinion, and worthy of death.

And is this answer - capital punishment - one of punishment or deterrence.

Both. Punishment for the offender, possible deterrence against those who may otherwise commit similar crimes.

Further, how have you arrived at your position on this issue?

A number of reasons. To me, perpetrators of the above crimes are the worst type of scum. I won't even call them human beings, because doing so would imply at least an ounce of decency which they do not possess. They serve no purpose on earth save to harm others and society at large.

Second, financial costs. It really bothers me that we spend an average of $30,000 per year per inmate in our federal prisons. 30 grand. And here we have teachers, social workers, cops, and firefighters barely making more than that.

Third, the prison systems being what they are, these animals either eventually get out and go on to commit more crimes, or if they're sentenced to life, they mentor lesser-sentenced animals who get out better prepared to commit further crimes. The hard-core criminals consider prison to be merely a school of hard-knocks, a place you get your Master's in sociopathic behavior from. Once out, you've earned some cred. Prison is a joke.

Fourth, aside from an addict or two, I've known people who were raped or molested, and the psychological scars they bear are horrific. In essence, their lives are destroyed for all practical purposes, not too mention that of their families. Their once-bright futures robbed from them by walking carbon forms of utterly zero value.

Fifth, because I think God would want us to. The sooner we send them to the after-life, the sooner He can route 'em downstairs.

Quote from dgabriel:

I would want to kill the offender. But I would rather have justice served by a court of law than under vengeance.

So easily, easily said. And when the "justice" system fails you and the murderer of your wife, or her rapist, or the maggot who lured your daughter into his van then tortured, sodomized, and threw her carcass into some ravine - when these fine citizens are either cut loose on a technicality, are let out early because of "good behavior" or, more commonly nowadays, to make room for the poor pothead who got busted 3 times and is now away for life, you will.........what?

And when you read one day that the same perp who did your wife or daughter did it AGAIN to someone else, you will.....what?

I know - you will simply shrug your shoulders and say, "Oh well. At least 'justice' was served in a court of law."

 

[dgabriel]

Quote from hapaboy:


Fifth, because I think God would want us to. The sooner we send them to the after-life, the sooner He can route 'em downstairs.

So easily, easily said. And when the "justice" system fails you and the murderer of your wife, or her rapist, or the maggot who lured your daughter into his van then tortured, sodomized, and threw her carcass into some ravine - when these fine citizens are either cut loose on a technicality, are let out early because of "good behavior" or, more commonly nowadays, to make room for the poor pothead who got busted 3 times and is now away for life, you will.........what?

And when you read one day that the same perp who did your wife or daughter did it AGAIN to someone else, you will.....what?

I know - you will simply shrug your shoulders and say, "Oh well. At least 'justice' was served in a court of law."

Well I am glad you think know who God wants you to kill. Bin Laden feels the same way about his hated targets. There's a psychiatric term for that, what is it, pathological homocidal narcissism?

Most of these offenders go away for a long time. I never heard of a rapist-murderer who was paroled early so the prisons could take in a pothead. If you have real world examples, please list them. Gives statistics, and details, please.

 

[ElCubano]

Quote from metooxx:

No; you can't bring back dead people when you are wrong ...

This and only this may be the only reason I answer no...but I do believe in an "eye for an eye"........ protecting my family is numero uno...peace

 

[ElCubano]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

777,

ay I am at a bank with my mother. It is a nice sunny day. A man comes over and shoots my mother with a gun right in front of me and she dies. Say I immediately whack the guy in the face with a baseball bat and knock him out. I tie him up and wait for the police to arrive. 50 people see the entire scene take place, including me. His fingerprints are all over the gun and bullets. Everything was caught on the bank's video cameras. The gun is registered to him. Say later he also even ADMITS to doing the crime. Are you going to tell me that this is not an instance where the death penalty could be applied?

If this was a scenerio in my life the man would be dead ( obviously if he doesnt kill me first ) and I would be the one on trial.......fo-sure

 

[bobcathy1]

I am not for the death penalty.
Bring back chain gangs for the bad apples. Work all the bad out of them!

Bob however says fry the bastards. Cheaper.

 

[nkhoi]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:


And she breaks just like a little girl.....

3 cheers for 15-year-old Elizabeth Smart, I hope she leave the ordeal all behind.

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from dgabriel:

Well I am glad you think know who God wants you to kill. Bin Laden feels the same way about his hated targets. There's a psychiatric term for that, what is it, pathological homocidal narcissism?

I don't know, but your condition is called DENIAL......... But hey, since you’re dragging religion into it, who am I (or you?) to argue with St. Thomas Aquinas? The myth that capital punishment is wholly condemned by the Bible and religious figures is absurd.

Most of these offenders go away for a long time. I never heard of a rapist-murderer who was paroled early so the prisons could take in a pothead. If you have real world examples, please list them. Gives statistics, and details, please.

LOL! You have got to be kidding. Really. Either you really are as naïve as you seem to be, or you live a life utterly devoid of news media which would be ironic as you live in NYC, the media capital of the world. That convicted murderers and rapists have been released for whatever reason, i.e. parole, reduced sentences for “good behavior,” and now, because of overcrowding caused in a large part by frivolous 3 strikes and you're out convictions on pot smokers, and gone on to commit further horrific crimes is INDISPUTABLE. Instead of me posting details of literally thousands of crimes, you should be posting evidence to support your absurd proposition that it has never happened. It would be the shortest research assignment you’ve ever done, save perhaps the time you discovered you couldn’t even count your age.

I don't know what the statistic is for today, but in '97 convicted murderers averaged only 6 years in prison. 6. Besides, "most" doesn't cut it. Tell that to the loved ones of the victims murdered by repeat offenders.

But since you insist, and to save time because you will undoubtedly respond with claims of “no post, no proof” here are some of the thousands of cases. I hope the “details” are enough for you:

Washington, 1998: 3 years after being paroled because he “showed signs of progress,” James Elledge kidnapped two women, bound them with rope, taped their eyes shut, then stabbed and strangled one of them when she resisted his rape attempt, and then raped the other one who he let free and who led police to the scene of the crime.

1995 California – William Suff, a.k.a. The Riverside Killer. In 1974, he and his wife at the time were convicted of beating their 2-month-old daughter to death in Fort Worth. Suff was sentenced to 70 years. In March, 1984, he was paroled to California. (Wow! 10 years for beating his own daughter to death!) He subsequently murdered at least 13 women.

Oregon, 2002: Robert Allen Cameron, 37, was convicted of false imprisonment in California in 1983. He served eight years in California for the 1989 rape of a 15-year old girl. On March 22, 2002, he was arrested for theft and possession of illegal weapons and was released on bail. Nine days later, Cameron raped and robbed a bartender in Cottage Grove. On April 1, armed with a gun, he tried to abduct a woman in a parking garage. Later the same day, he abducted a 16-year old girl. He then entered a home and stole a car at gunpoint. He was chased and eventually shot by police. His defense attorney said he had "an astounding level" of methamphetamine in his system. In July, 2002, Cameron was sentenced to 45 years in prison. (Great, this animal is going to cost the taxpayer $1,350,000 if he serves his full sentence, but we all know that won’t happen, don’t we? And boy, those two raped girls sure got “justice,” didn’t they? Especially the bartender, victim # 2. I’m sure she wonders every day why Cameron was allowed to be out on the streets after the first rape. I know I wonder why, and I know you don’t.)

Missouri, 1988: Brent Hunter, who was earlier convicted of killing a blind bar owner in 1968, but was released on parole in 1980, suffocated a woman and her son during a 1988 robbery.

Montana, 2000: Leroy Schmitz, who served 11 years in prison for strangling his girlfriend in Massachusetts in 1986, pleaded guilty to murder in the death of his wife.

Arkansas, 1999: Algernon Doby, seven months after being paroled for a previous murder conviction AND five months after being released on bond after being arrested for being a felon in possession of a firearm, shot a pregnant woman and killed her boyfriend.

Florida, 2000: A woman died from burn injuries when her on and off boyfriend, Roberto Suarez, torched her store because he was upset at her refusal to make up after a recent falling out. He served seven years in prison on a 1974 murder conviction for killing a man who took a french fry off his plate at a restaurant. (Wow! Seven years! That sure reformed him, didn’t it?)

Nineteen year old Sonya Santiago was murdered March 7, 1999 by an early release prisoner in the state of Florida. He was sentenced to 6 years but was "grandfathered" and allowed out after 3 years. He was wearing an ankle monitor and under the watch of the probation department. He not only raped her, he slashed her throat. Three months after murdering Sonya, he broke into a house a few blocks from her apartment and raped a mother and her 9 year old daughter. DNA tied him to both scenes.

In September, 1978, 19 year old Lisa Hullinger was beaten to death by her former boyfriend, William Coday, Jr. After just 16 months in jail, Coday was released. In 1997, William Coday, Jr. was arrested and charged with the July 13, 1997 murder of another former girlfriend, Gloria Gomez. Lisa Hullinger's parents are the founders of The National Organization of Parents Of Murdered Children, Inc.

You know what? Go to that site, the National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children and read some of the accounts. The instances of the killers being prior convicted murderers are numerous. Read these accounts written by anguished family members. If after doing so you cannot believe that capital punishment IS about respect for life – the lives of innocent people who have been killed or will be killed by repeat offenders – I say not that you have a cold heart, but that in fact you have no soul.
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