Is Bush the most socialist President in the history of the USA?

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

This is definitely a bail out of Wall Street, disguised as a necessary way to protect main street.

This is not an act of socialism at all, but pure capitalism.

We are not going to end up with the government running insurance companies, brokerage firms, etc.

This is a temporary situation to rescue Wall Street, and as soon as this washes out, we will be back to business the way it has always been...i.e. the ruling class gaining more power over the working class.

 

[OldTrader]

Quote from a_person:

LOL, Bush is no socialist, he is a committed free marketeer faced with the unpleasant fact that the free market theories work...until they don't, that deregulations and hands-off approach to the economy, business excesses and abuses lead to bubbles, disasters and meltdowns.

He's learning the hard way that business if not regulated will do stupid things and hurt itself and others, that for the sake of extra-profit and immediate gratification business will make every mistake possible and sacrifice their own future, that greed affects companies exactly the same way it affects individuals making them blind stupid and vulnerable.

I disagree with most of this.

First, Bush is not a "committed free marketeer", nor have we had a "free market" in literally decades. I'd say most of the people posting on this board wouldn't know a "free market" if it hit them in the ass.

Instead, what we call "free markets" are markets with all sorts of government intrusion. And therefore, it clearly doesn't work.

An example might be the banking system. This system is so distorted by governmental interference and regulations that I don't know how anyone could call this a "free market".

Let's take a simple example. FDIC insurance....the hand of government. And who can argue against it? Isn't it good for the "people"? But here's the point: FDIC insurance removes a check and balance....the informed opinion of the people. With FDIC insurance I don't have to worry about my money up to $100K...and therefore, I don't have to be concerned with the financial soundness of the bank, or in fact, what they're doing with my money. I'm no longer concerned with which bank I place my deposit with, which bank offers clear safety of principle. And, as a matter of fact, the market has almost ceased to function in terms of risk/reward as it applies to bank deposits. Because of this, banks can play the lending game, whether they are financially sound or not.

Stop and imagine how a bank might be forced to function if FDIC insurance did not exist. Depositors might be more leery. Riskier banks might have more trouble attracting deposits. This might keep the riskier banks from participating as significantly in the lending markets, etc etc.

Free markets in banking? Give me a break. This may already have more governmental intrusion than most industries today. Ever heard of federal bank examiners?

Does the FED play around in the interest rate markets every day, trying to control the direction and level of interest rates?

Who sets the rules on how much a bank can loan versus it's capital? LOL! It ain't the free market baby.

So let's just call it what it is: This was the failure of a mixed economy. This has nothing to do with the free market. Nothing to do with capitalism...which has not been on the scene in decades. All we've had is varying degrees of mixed economies. So what we found out is that mixed economies don't work. And at their heart, all politicians are socialists of one degree or another.

The solution to this will be MORE government intrusion. More government regulation. This will not work. More of what ails you will not lead anywhere.

What we are witnessing is a global swing toward socialism. This country, and it's citizens, don't have a clue what a free market is, what capitalism is. This is simply another step in the long term decline of America, led by the politicians, and willingly embraced by it's citizen sheep.

OldTrader

 

[Gringinho]

Quote from a_person:

LOL, Bush is no socialist, he is a committed free marketeer faced with the unpleasant fact that the free market theories work...until they don't, that deregulations and hands-off approach to the economy, business excesses and abuses lead to bubbles, disasters and meltdowns.

...

Well, he is not a socialist - he is an ELITIST - like the rest of the Neoconservatives.
Only he is not included in the "cognitive elite" of Charles Murray - but the James Burnham "managerial class".



The "old money" let the Neoconservatives into power - because they got afraid about the Internet and all the political and world stage changes happening. They didn't know how to react - and listened to the plans of the corrupt, aggressive, elitist, radical ideology of the Neoconservatives for "protecting", "liberating" ...



http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

Elliott Abrams Gary Bauer William J. Bennett Jeb Bush

Dick Cheney Eliot A. Cohen Midge Decter Paula Dobriansky Steve Forbes

Aaron Friedberg Francis Fukuyama Frank Gaffney Fred C. Ikle

Donald Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad I. Lewis Libby Norman Podhoretz

Dan Quayle Peter W. Rodman Stephen P. Rosen Henry S. Rowen

Donald Rumsfeld Vin Weber George Weigel Paul Wolfowitz


Oh, and for the RECORD - the Neoconservatives HATED the idea of Realism and containment from the Reagan period of foreign policy ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Burnham
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_in_foreign_relations
http://www.anglospherechallenge.com/



Here is what we thought around the end of the cold war with our optimism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_dividend
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War




And before you start yelling conspiracy theory - I think I am MUCH better equipped than YOU to understand what has been happening.
You can quote Charles Murray on that!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managerial_state



http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.18987/pub_detail.asp
The Ideal of Equality, the Reality of Difference

By Charles Murray
Posted: Saturday, January 1, 2000
SPEECHES
AEI Bradley Lecture Series (Washington)
Publication Date: April 11, 1994


http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript130.html
http://www.pbs.org/thinktank/transcript129.html

 

[BlindLemonBoosh]

Quote from a_person:

LOL, Bush is no socialist, he is a committed free marketeer faced with the unpleasant fact that the free market theories work...until they don't, that deregulations and hands-off approach to the economy, business excesses and abuses lead to bubbles, disasters and meltdowns.

He's learning the hard way that business if not regulated will do stupid things and hurt itself and others, that for the sake of extra-profit and immediate gratification business will make every mistake possible and sacrifice their own future, that greed affects companies exactly the same way it affects individuals making them blind stupid and vulnerable.

People who are not knee-jerk free-marketeers saw this disaster coming years ago and kept warning about an imminent meltdown and potential second great depression while free marketeers kept screaming that the market would solve all problems. Well, the market did not.

Bullseye. Except that Bush is a "situational free marketeer" or "free marketeer of convenience" - take your pick. He would change horses in a heartbeat to suit his self-interest. Most people would.

 

[Gringinho]

BlindLemonBoosh,

the Bushes are so dense and only think about saving their own asses filled with greens. They allied with the Neoconservatives to "reshape" the emerging rest of the world. They bought into the gospel of "liberation" - and GWB was the perrrrfect patsy for the job.


The US population got duped so badly it hurts any nuts. It is FUNNY and SO SAD at the same time ...


PITY is really what sums up what I think of the US two-state system thwarting any real chance for change in the US. People are just brainwashed and can't think for themselves. The brain can only contain so-much-information - because it is limited in it's growth by the Skull-and-bones cage it is contained in.


If ANYONE in the US had any grey matter capacity left to spare - they would understand the INTEGRITY and true DEMOCRACY is what they need to adapt to the future, and EVOLVE with the rest of the world.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negationism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managerial_state


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_democracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_intelligence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_direct_democracy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity

 

[Pa(b)st Prime]

Although I'm a bit younger than you I'm almost as "old school" in thought. At least I try to be.

Of course you speak Gospel truth in your historical comparisons between "free" vs. regulated. All your points are valid.

HOWEVER in this particular case can we perhaps concede that if not by lack of regulation-but instead by the very natue of OTC trading-a lack of MARGINING-contributed greatly to this crisis? My guess OT is that Dick Fuld told traders in the waning days of LEH to load up on this stuff and to prey for a Hail Mary. Ya know one of the factors I recognize? Wall Street partnerships using public money. I care little about the House Of Lehman becoming over leveraged but I think this culture of using OPM was an unheralded cause. These guys had a free call on bonus with a naked put on risk and they got taken out on the trade.

By our definition of Laissez Faire the IB's are as much complicet as the Federal government. Well maybe not quite but they ain't no angels. And YES you make a VERY important point that FDIC insurance is ALSO not a freebie to the American public/taxpayer and that CRUCIAL nuance had best be made. Everyone who eats pays and insured accounts feed at the public trough.

Quote from OldTrader:

I disagree with most of this.

First, Bush is not a "committed free marketeer", nor have we had a "free market" in literally decades. I'd say most of the people posting on this board wouldn't know a "free market" if it hit them in the ass.

Instead, what we call "free markets" are markets with all sorts of government intrusion. And therefore, it clearly doesn't work.

An example might be the banking system. This system is so distorted by governmental interference and regulations that I don't know how anyone could call this a "free market".

Let's take a simple example. FDIC insurance....the hand of government. And who can argue against it? Isn't it good for the "people"? But here's the point: FDIC insurance removes a check and balance....the informed opinion of the people. With FDIC insurance I don't have to worry about my money up to $100K...and therefore, I don't have to be concerned with the financial soundness of the bank, or in fact, what they're doing with my money. I'm no longer concerned with which bank I place my deposit with, which bank offers clear safety of principle. And, as a matter of fact, the market has almost ceased to function in terms of risk/reward as it applies to bank deposits. Because of this, banks can play the lending game, whether they are financially sound or not.

Stop and imagine how a bank might be forced to function if FDIC insurance did not exist. Depositors might be more leery. Riskier banks might have more trouble attracting deposits. This might keep the riskier banks from participating as significantly in the lending markets, etc etc.

Free markets in banking? Give me a break. This may already have more governmental intrusion than most industries today. Ever heard of federal bank examiners?

Does the FED play around in the interest rate markets every day, trying to control the direction and level of interest rates?

Who sets the rules on how much a bank can loan versus it's capital? LOL! It ain't the free market baby.

So let's just call it what it is: This was the failure of a mixed economy. This has nothing to do with the free market. Nothing to do with capitalism...which has not been on the scene in decades. All we've had is varying degrees of mixed economies. So what we found out is that mixed economies don't work. And at their heart, all politicians are socialists of one degree or another.

The solution to this will be MORE government intrusion. More government regulation. This will not work. More of what ails you will not lead anywhere.

What we are witnessing is a global swing toward socialism. This country, and it's citizens, don't have a clue what a free market is, what capitalism is. This is simply another step in the long term decline of America, led by the politicians, and willingly embraced by it's citizen sheep.

OldTrader

 

[Gringinho]

Pabst,

as a systems analyst all my professional life - I can tell you I think Laissez-faire works. What doesn't work is the CORRUPTION - the systemic bias being allowed into the system.

This bias is making a capitalist Laissez-faire system getting turned into a system increasingly dependent on more human interaction. As we know there is something called "human error" - and this is where the cancerous growth of corruption and systemic bias has gotten within the capitalism.

With increasing complexities and encumbering all facets of the systems - the cancerous parasite bloodsucker are continuing to invent more complexities - more cancerous straws that they can suck into the system of world resources flow - i.e the world economy.

Now the whole system is like a humongous growth stinking and aching, laden with judicial shit - lawyers and regulations reaching from here to the next galaxy. This is how a cancerous corruption works in a world system - and any national system - on any level - in a human body - down to a single blood cell invaded by HIV. It is a recurring system, evident from the most microscopic to the largest system you can imagine.


To keep a system strong, sustainable and ultimately alive - it has to have integrity and trust - then it can grow in a good natured way.
That is how to live... and make a living. In fact - it is how to lead a life - family and business.
You need sustainable development and growth - always keeping the integrity and trust free from bias.
That even goes for a post on an anonymous message board, or any argumentation.



This is also why I am not religious, but I acknowledge non-authoritarian religion as something giving a lot of people some internal integrity in their lives. It should NOT however - be forced upon others. Including religion outside of your personal internal belief system - corrupts and turns a bias against any other system external or part of you. Ultimately - gospel corrupts by aligning others to you - forcing your views on others.

Now, understand the hypocrisy scale of education and communication (see other post I made just before this one in another forum).
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2081222


Finally, if you were a TRULY conservative - you would protect and defend the integrity and sustainability of these systems instead of letting them become biased and aligned. However, by doing that - you are also participating in the recurring hypocrisy that is part of all systems.
Remember I talked about hypocrisy some weeks back? This is what I was talking about always...

 

[Pa(b)st Prime]

I love you Gringinho.

Quote from Gringinho:

Pabst,

as a systems analyst all my professional life - I can tell you I think Laissez-faire works. What doesn't work is the CORRUPTION - the systemic bias being allowed into the system.

This bias is making a capitalist Laissez-faire system getting turned into a system increasingly dependent on more human interaction. As we know there is something called "human error" - and this is where the cancerous growth of corruption and systemic bias has gotten within the capitalism.

With increasing complexities and encumbering all facets of the systems - the cancerous parasite bloodsucker are continuing to invent more complexities - more cancerous straws that they can suck into the system of world resources flow - i.e the world economy.

Now the whole system is like a humongous growth stinking and aching, laden with judicial shit - lawyers and regulations reaching from here to the next galaxy. This is how a cancerous corruption works in a world system - and any national system - on any level - in a human body - down to a single blood cell invaded by HIV. It is a recurring system, evident from the most microscopic to the largest system you can imagine.


To keep a system strong, sustainable and ultimately alive - it has to have integrity and trust - then it can grow in a good natured way.
That is how to live... and make a living. In fact - it is how to lead a life - family and business.
You need sustainable development and growth - always keeping the integrity and trust free from bias.
That even goes for a post on an anonymous message board, or any argumentation.



This is also why I am not religious, but I acknowledge non-authoritarian religion as something giving a lot of people some internal integrity in their lives. It should NOT however - be forced upon others. Including religion outside of your personal internal belief system - corrupts and turns a bias against any other system external or part of you. Ultimately - gospel corrupts by aligning others to you - forcing your views on others.

Now, understand the hypocrisy scale of education and communication (see other post I made just before this one in another forum).
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2081222


Finally, if you were a TRULY conservative - you would protect and defend the integrity and sustainability of these systems instead of letting them become biased and aligned. However, by doing that - you are also participating in the recurring hypocrisy that is part of all systems.
Remember I talked about hypocrisy some weeks back? This is what I was talking about always...

 

[Gringinho]

Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:

I love you Gringinho.

Stop it ...
stop talking - start acting!

... and I don't mean on me ... I've got a black belt and almost 20 years of martial arts in me ...
I haven't missed a UFC or Pride Fighting Championship (now DREAM) in almost 3 years.

Just remember to vote with your brain.
All of you can start claiming your brains back from these corrupt malignant elitists
polarizing the whole world into their alignment of a world system funneling world resources for their profits.
They have had no regards for the human, economic and social cost in their corrupt dealings.

You CAN all change a system - just get the f... outta bed first!
See Representative direct democracy for what it is!
It is the road to personal freedom and a working, sustainable system for continued growth.
It also keeps integrity and trust - so that you can continue to use the system and adapt with the future.
A democratic system transcends religion, partisanships ... it is NEUTRAL - not intelligent in itself.
It is just a tool we humans deploy. Please keep it safe from corruption and the cancerous growth of elitists.
It is easy using technology to DESIGN OUT the corruption - keeping the elitists out of the flow from direct democratic influence.
That means you can call yourselves free again - free from the propaganda and warring, and start exploring, using your brains.


Just start training the connection between your brain and your actions again ... and grow some hair on those balls.



I WILL be opening a branch of my church on a ranch in Texas shortly. You are all very welcome!
I never did find my place below anyone...

 

[Pa(b)st Prime]

I see Palin as my future. Seriously. She's hated by those I most want to defeat......

Quote from Gringinho:

Stop it ...
stop talking - start acting!

... and I don't mean on me ... I've got a black belt and almost 20 years of martial arts in me ...
I haven't missed a UFC or Pride Fighting Championship (now DREAM) in almost 3 years.

Just remember to vote with your brain.
All of you can start claiming your brains back from these corrupt malignant elitists
polarizing the whole world into their alignment of a world system funneling world resources for their profits.
They have had no regards for the human, economic and social cost in their corrupt dealings.

You CAN all change a system - just get the f... outta bed first!
See Representative direct democracy for what it is!
It is the road to personal freedom and a working, sustainable system for continued growth.
It also keeps integrity and trust - so that you can continue to use the system and adapt with the future.
A democratic system transcends religion, partisanships ... it is NEUTRAL - not intelligent in itself.
It is just a tool we humans deploy. Please keep it safe from corruption and the cancerous growth of elitists.
It is easy using technology to DESIGN OUT the corruption - keeping the elitists out of the flow from direct democratic influence.
That means you can call yourselves free again - free from the propaganda and warring, and start exploring, using your brains.


Just start training the connection between your brain and your actions again ... and grow some hair on those balls.



I WILL be opening a branch of my church on a ranch in Texas shortly. You are all very welcome!
I never did find my place below anyone...