Is becoming a quant a waste of time?

Quote from fatrat:

I've spoken to these organizations. I feel like I should give warning to people who're out there reading the forums and thinking a CS/math education makes it much easier to get closer to the business of trading.

Most of the roles that are offered to me are not very stimulating. Primarily because the problems these organizations [UBS, Goldman, MS] face with regard to developing trading system has a lot more to do with large-organization bureaucracy and management ineptitude. Furthermore, there are firms out there that are packaging and cleaning up most of the software required for interfacing to the exchange.

Goldman, for example, has a horrible division where they use something called SECdb. The recruiters and interviews will tell you it's great up front. However, if you can talk to anyone on the inside, you know the work is boring and probably should be off-shored to children in a 3rd world country. The only thing stopping them from of-shoring it to children in a dingy mine in a third world country is probably some fear/regulation/fine. These are the sorts of grinder-roles that investment banks look to fill. Even more demeaning than SECdb work is front-end trader interface work. These roles contribute to mind-rot, and are a complete waste of my youth, education, and energy. I suspect I'd be better served working for city sanitation.

The individuals who control the business and trade management in investment banks have no interest in letting the reasoning behind quantitative strategy development get to grunt workers who're trading their time and youth for dollars that buy little to nothing in the Manhattan area. Taxes, rent, prescription drug costs will eat a gimp's $120,000/yr up. The city pollution then kills off said gimp.

In addition, my experience with large organizations as a W2 employee is mostly like this: Once they have you in a role, they keep you in a role. Especially if you're handicapped. It's not particularly in their interest to expose you to core business logic, especially on the quantitative and trading side.

Finally, while I'm smart, I'm certainly not smart enough to land a role in DE Shaw or RenTec. Their recruiters will ask up front what my SAT/GRE/Whatever scores are, or ask for stellar academic credentials. As I've stated before, my GPA was above 3.5, but not 3.8 or higher. Regardless of my Ivy League credentials, my past seems to be condemning me to low-tier systems level work and grunt work.

Academia offers some hope and growth, but I'm growing increasingly skeptical that my predicament will lend itself to a role I actually could enjoy.
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I have to say that I have never worked for an investment bank, but all of this resembles basically every place where I worked, including what I heard of investment banks.
So true fatrat, so true
 
Quote from rcanfiel:

Funny, I have been WORKING for Investment Bank IT shops. What you say does NOT ring true for people who know what they want. They have HUNDREDS of smart computer people, and were hiring by the boatload.

Getting a job is not about getting discouraged by something you heard or instances of "discussions". It is about sending resumes, contacting IT leads, talking to recruiters, preparing yourself, practice interviews, getting advice, getting your foot in the door.

If you do not plan to fight for what you want, then you do not deserve to work in your intended fields. Academia is no easy lunch or beacon of hope for you.

It is less about disabilities, and more about proving yourself, getting an opportunity.

There are plenty of people on this board who could probably give you some kind of intro. But you seem somewhat defeatist.
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I don't want any e-troubles with you rcanfiel, but your words sound more like that of a recruiter.

The primary lure of every Wall St. recruiter is the prospect of making a lot of money and getting "close to the business". But I guarantee you if you come from the technical side, you top out without quantitative training (math). If you get the math, even then the culture is very restrictive. Some non-quantitative technical people go become analysts, but never develop quantitative strategies. Some figure out a few basic edges to make money. Very few seem to come into the industry from the inside and get enough training to implement their own strategies independently.

You don't just "fight" for what you want, especially if what you want happens to be the bread and butter of the core business. Edge dilution is a concern to anyone who employs a software developer, but it's also a nuisance for anyone who's trying to get a footing in the industry, even if on a cursory/introductory level.
 
Quote from rcanfiel:

Funny, I have been WORKING for Investment Bank IT shops. What you say does NOT ring true for people who know what they want. They have HUNDREDS of smart computer people, and were hiring by the boatload.

Getting a job is not about getting discouraged by something you heard or instances of "discussions". It is about sending resumes, contacting IT leads, talking to recruiters, preparing yourself, practice interviews, getting advice, getting your foot in the door.

If you do not plan to fight for what you want, then you do not deserve to work in your intended fields. Academia is no easy lunch or beacon of hope for you.

It is less about disabilities, and more about proving yourself, getting an opportunity.

There are plenty of people on this board who could probably give you some kind of intro. But you seem somewhat defeatist.
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One other thing I'd like to point out is that they're only hiring by the boatload because there's a lot of turnover in your typical Wall St. electronic trading outfit.

What do you think there is to implement outside of the quantitative side of finance that hasn't already been implemented a thousand times over on Wall St.? There are only so many times someone can write an ITCH feed or an ARCA/TotalView interface, or an order router. If the traders have a new model and want a custom front end to render their market data, you're looking at mindless front-end work.

The issue at hand is knowing how to avoid getting locked into the hum-drum of reimplementation within a framework of excessive bureaucracy.

I should rephrase my original claim about all of this being a "waste of time", and perhaps ask if anyone out there has specifically gone from the technical side into the trading strategy implementation side with their degrees.
 
Honestly I think you should just become a trader if you want to learn to develop automated strategies. I can think of many, many different ideas for trading systems to the point where I believe I can pull a profitable idea out of my ass because of all the experience I have watching stocks move and scalping for 5-50 cent profits. If you know how to make money in the market, the only thing that can get in your way of making a living is poor money management and poor management of one's emotions... but with a good computer system, all you have to know is that your idea actually works. If you watch how market works it's pretty obvious what patterns are worth using. For years you could have looked for size stepping down on the offer and then hit the bid using a bullet. Don't try to make markets, try to take liquidity in situations where there will be srong demand for it.

Get your degree to get your degree, but don't get it thinking it will make you better at developing quantitative trading systems because it won't. I believe simpler is better when it comes to developing automated trading systems, and having knowledge of why markets move is more important than having knowledge of advanced abstract math.

To answer the thread title, becoming a quant is a waste of time - becoming an independent trader who uses automated technology to automate entries and exits, however, is a great way to spend your time if you have the heart, brains, and balls.
 
Quote from fatrat:

One other thing I'd like to point out is that they're only hiring by the boatload because there's a lot of turnover in your typical Wall St. electronic trading outfit.

They are hiring by the boatload because there is heavy growth in trading and wealth management. The ITers are paid very well and many get serious bonuses. Asia - Europe - North America - etc. are experiencing rapid growth, algorithmic trading is taking over the human trading element. There is a huge amount of activity in supporting the various trading desks and handling the many requests, needs, applications, data, etc. In fact, IT is where the growth and activity is at within investment banks and hedge funds.

You appear to be speaking from the outside, not from working within the IT shops there.

If that is where you don't want to be, that is fine. But academia or going on your own is not an easier path or guaranteed path. Many who go it on their own will wind up doing the above anyway, if they want to earn a decent living.
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Dear Fatrat,

Having read your posts and others. I agree with all of you and do accept the difficulties of being a handicapped person.

But, would like to remind you gently that "Everyone is handicapped in one way or the other". Do not be surprised, many normal people are not bright or fast or able to support themselves - this is also a handicap.

Let us look around, even the great people have been criticized and are not left in peace even after their death, so what about us? :)

So cheer up. Anyway, regarding your Ivy Leaque certificate, please see below:

- What Does an Ivy League Degree Get You?

- From Ivy League to dead-end job

- Ivy League and Minimum Wage


Since, you seem to have good computer knowledge in hardware, software and the system level too. You should seriously think of exploiting these talents. "knowledge is never wasted".

Moreover, there are so many freelancing sites out there and you can surely benefit from them, please see below:

- Stock Trading Portfolio Manager Software at Trading Software Guide

-Stock Trading Systems (Miscellaneous)

- Risk and Stock Trading Fees: The Two Barriers To Overcome If You ...

- internet stock trading companies

Moreover, do explore your computer skills in the freelancing sites, where you shall earn money and satisfaction:

http://www.getacoder.com
http://www.rentacoder.com
http://www.getafreelancer.com
http://www.php-freelancers.com
http://www.elance.com
http://www.scriptlance.com
http://www.freelancefree.com/
http://www.freelance.com/
http://www.freelanceuk.com/
http://www.freelancers.net/

There are many more, try googling with words "freelance OR freelancing"

"Never Give Up"
"Do not let others words or actions discourage you"
"No one kicks a dead dog"

Do keep us posted of your progress? Three Cheers! :D
 
Quote from fatrat:

I'm going to investigate this option as soon as I finish my degree. It's just a matter of whether it's the sane choice.
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Hello fatrat, several questions :

1) Are you trading ? If yes - for how many years ?
2) If answer to question 1) => "YES" =>Did you ever trade a 7-8 digit account ?
3) Did you ever take a loss of over 50 % as a trader ?
4) Do you remember taking the first HUGE loss on any given trade you made ?
_____________________________________________

My argument :
It´s not all about bringing the right technical / educational "prerequisites" with you - there is much more ! Trading is about forming one person´s character ! Consistentely - over years.

I met 10 times brighter people then me in the industry and their problem was : ARROGANCE !

LTCM, AMARANTH, BEAR STEARNS HF´s, SOWOOD - they did not collaps because of lack of synopses !
 
Quote from rcanfiel:

Funny, I have been WORKING for Investment Bank IT shops. What you say does NOT ring true for people who know what they want. They have HUNDREDS of smart computer people, and were hiring by the boatload.

Getting a job is not about getting discouraged by something you heard or instances of "discussions". It is about sending resumes, contacting IT leads, talking to recruiters, preparing yourself, practice interviews, getting advice, getting your foot in the door.

If you do not plan to fight for what you want, then you do not deserve to work in your intended fields. Academia is no easy lunch or beacon of hope for you.

It is less about disabilities, and more about proving yourself, getting an opportunity.

There are plenty of people on this board who could probably give you some kind of intro. But you seem somewhat defeatist.
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^

The above poster is a bonafide IDIOTA

You'll be doing yourself a big favor by placing him (her?) on ignore.

Your skillset is beyond 99% of the average ET'ers. Like the poster rcanfile, most are teenage mutants who don't trade and it's a big pain to wade past their noise.

Quantplus made a few suggestions that you should pay heed to.

Have you thought about working with a few of the bonafide traders on ET? A few would be happy to part with their lesser strategies if you help them automate.
 
Quote from arealpissedgoy:

^

The above poster is a bonafide IDIOTA

You'll be doing yourself a big favor by placing him (her?) on ignore.

==============================================

Thanks for the advice, consider it done!
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