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Is Atheism a crutch for people who donât understand the complexity of God?
- Thread starter sho-tim
- Start date
Quote from Jayford:
The most classic and often repeated argument of all. Probably the first thing you will learn in philosophy 101 (first thing I studied in that class anyway). This is referring to the Christian version of God BTW.
1) God is all powerful
2) God is all knowing
3) God is supremely good.
Then why allow all the extreme misery on Earth? That is a logical argument. The typical theistic response is not. They cannot give a rational answer, which invariably leads to the same crutch, "we cannot understand why God allows all the misery, because we cannot understand God". THAT is not logic, its a cop out.
If you do offer a logical argument and state that "who says God is good?" then you would indeed be a rare believer, but you would have a point. My answer would be that I personally don't believe in a supreme being because I don't believe in much of anything that has not been proven by science, or that at least has some scientific evidence. I don't believe in UFOs for example because after all these years, no one has produced one. Same with Sasquatch. One woulda been hit by a car by now.
1. we must make it clear that I am answering this question as a philosopher - I am not making a scientific argument. I have to make that clear because some atheists become very irrational when you talk about this shit and that start arguing that believers think this represents scientific proof.
2. For a reader of the bible this is one is answered in the beginning of the bible in the Garden of Eden.
3. When man was under God's full protection - man was not fully free. He therefore he was not full free to choose Goodness over evil. Hence Adam and Eve (man) was less than fully satisfied. ( in the Garden.)
In order for man to one day be fully happy, fully knowledgeable and therefore fully aligned with God - man must have free will.
Because God granted free will to man - man had to be separated from God's protection in the Garden. So now man has to deal with the consequences. Essentially Adam and Eve's choice to be relieved of protection in exchange for free will - is the choice humans make. We want free will.
Note: i do not expect that this argument will turn anyone into a believer - but I have also never seen an argument which gave really strong support for disbelief either.
Quote from jem:
...
In order for man to one day be fully happy, fully happy and therefore fully aligned with God - man must have free will.
...
That is just a complete oxymoron and utterly stupid thing to claim. "Fully aligned" and "free will" are complete opposites.
I am glad you admit that Abrahamic religion is void of logic, reasoning and not attainable by philosophy - but only faith alone.
Abrahamic religion is stupid, suppressive, oppressive, authoritarian, anti-democratic and backwards.
Quote from Gringinho:
Puny attempt of yours...
Science disproves creationism and evolution has already been proved.
Why aren't we past this. I seriously doubt we can continue the discussion if we can't make it past this elementary point.
Science does not disprove creationism. It does not disprove anything! It cant disprove, with facts and logic, a being that by definition (if he exists) is not bound by either. A God simply could have used evolution to create people. Maybe that just how he "created" us. Or maybe he decided to make it look like we evolved from apes. Do you see how that gets us no where? Science can't answer these question.
Quote from jonbig04:
Why aren't we past this. I seriously doubt we can continue the discussion if we can't make it past this elementary point.
Science does not disprove creationism. It does not disprove anything! It cant disprove, with facts and logic, a being that by definition (if he exists) is not bound by either. A God simply could have used evolution to create people. Maybe that just how he "created" us. Or maybe he decided to make it look like we evolved from apes. Do you see how that gets us no where? Science can't answer these question.
Bullshit.
Creationism is disproved. The religious texts of Abrahamic religions are disproved by the findings and carbon dating of ancestors along with the evolutionary findings.
If you think science gets you nowhere, why don't you just stop believing anything?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_explosion
Quote from Gringinho:
That is just a complete oxymoron and utterly stupid thing to claim. "Fully aligned" and "free will" are complete opposites.
I am glad you admit that Abrahamic religion is void of logic, reasoning and not attainable by philosophy - but only faith alone.
Abrahamic religion is stupid, suppressive, authoritarian, anti-democratic and backwards.
free will and fully aligned - was meant to express the following thought...
I have knowledge of good and evil and therefore I choose to be with the Good.
That is the whole story of redemption in the bible my friend. We are not good enough on our own - we need help. We believe in God and ask for God's help and we choose him. Boom.
Not saying you have to believe it - just saying that is the point of the story.
By the way the Garden of Eden also illustrates the difference between eastern and western religion. We can not evolve into Gods.
===
Finally - you redefined my argument and set up the typical strawman. It would have been easier to admit you had a knee jerk reaction and took my argument out of context. You slipped - because you were out of context... I caught it and you backed up. No shame in that -
but don't tell me Science is on the side of Atheists... without proving science proves God does not exist.
What many do not get is that many believers know where science starts and faith begins.
Many atheists keep missing the point that when they deny God exists they are acting on faith as well. In fact it may be that it is axiomatic that atheists are irrational. They hold a belief they can never prove.
Quote from Jayford:
Well, if we are at the beginning, and there is no Christian god, pagan gods, etc., then we are left at a serious stalemate.
Of course we are!
No evidence for or against. I have a hard time conceptualizing why a supreme being would bother with evolution; however, and we have discovered soooo much in the last few hundred years that religion was sure was created by God. Lightening for one. The existence of atoms and how nearly everything works for another.
Just because we know how something works, doesn't bring us any closer to WHY. Its like saying a plan crashed because it ran into the ground at high speed.
I also really hope I am still alive if science is able to create life from combining amino acids. That will pretty much end every "logical" argument for creation,
How? Could a supreme being not have used the same method? Or perhaps combining amino acids doesn't work at all, until the day before the test he snaps his fingers and makes it happen just so scientists have something to marvel at.
Do you see how this goes in circles?
Quote from jem:
I have knowledge of good and evil and therefore I choose to be with the Good.
That is the whole story of redemption in the bible my friend. We are not good enough on our own - we need help. We ask for Gods help and we choose him. Boom. Not saying you have to believe it - just saying that is the point of the story. By the way it is also the difference between eastern and western religion. We can not be Gods.
We also will not evolve into Gods.
Finally - you redefined your whole bullshit argument into creationism. You slipped - because you were out of context... I caught it and you backed up. No shame in that - but don't tell me Science is on the side of Atheists... without proving science proves God does not exist.
You are welcome to use science to defeat others faith... I use science to prove that it is illogical to state science says God does not exist.
You are truly delusional and a liar as well.
You just claimed that logic and philosophy cannot prove Abrahamic religion, and now you say "I use science to prove that it is illogical to state science says God does not exist."
How can anyone debate you when you are clearly off a cliff? Do you even think that you live on planet Earth?
Quote from Gringinho:
Bullshit.
Creationism is disproved. The religious texts of Abrahamic religions are disproved by the findings and carbon dating of ancestors along with the evolutionary findings.
I don't understand why you cant comprehend this, but it seems the only way for you to see that this will go nowhere is to go nowhere with you....
Perhaps a supreme being was bored and decided to alter the carbon dating data just because he is an asshole and wants to throw you off.
What does Abraham have to do with proving and disproving a supreme bring?
To sum up, your best case argument is this: "Abraham is wrong, so God does not exist". Do you see how ridiculous that is?