Intelligent Design struck down in Federal Court

Quote from hapaboy:

Apologies for taking this thread off course, but I think it's important to say it publicly that JohnnyK is one helluva guitarist! :)

You may continue....

Thanks hapaboy! To quote Z...

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Threads become what they will, and one possible direction offered in this thread is the recovery from depression via something other than drug addiction and chemical dependency.

So if anybody would like a sample of some musical medicine just holler my PM with a real email address. I have some unpolished mp3 clips from last summer to share.

Mahalo,

JohnnyK:)
 
Quote from JohnnyK:

Thanks hapaboy!
Hey, gotta give credit where it's due!

(BTW, I'm having a blast with my Ibanez S470, although I haven't been able to practice as much as I would like due to work and family. I've got the intros down for Hell's Bells, Silent Lucidity, Smoke on the Water, and Enter Sandman. Working on Rush's Closer to the Heart, Bon Jovi's Wanted Dead or Alive, a couple of Pink Floyd tunes, and Metallica's Fade to Black.

Some Satriani songs and some acoustic stuff from Rik Emmett and Steve Howe are on the horizon - distant horizon, to be sure, but there nevertheless.)

Hope you had a very Mele Kelikimaka!

Aloha,

H
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

...I also believe by allowing a non denominational ID theory to be taught (that would include the principles of all relgions....not just one particular religion) would allow the children to have a more expaned vision of spirituality, that will help to foster more acceptance of other ideas and greater tolerance.
...
I don't disagree with anything you said in your post. This statement warrants a response.

Wouldn't this be better served by having an ethics course be required as part of your education? Ethics (which encompasses morals) can and does encompass the wisdom of religion(s). Ethics is a branch of Philosophy and can be taught there, or it can certainly be taught as part of a Divinity course.

In other words, Sex Education (as in sex for fun and it's potential consequences, not the scientific sex-for-reproduction) is not taught in Biology class but as a seperate subject, even though you learn about sex in Biology. In History class you learn about wars and killing, but no mention is made of ethics there.

Still, I catch your drift.

nitro
 
Quote from kjkent1:

Your links are especially interesting to me. Thanks for posting them.
YW.
You also state that you think that ID should be taught along side evolutionary theory.
Huh? No I don't think they should be taught as part of the curriculum, but for say as a for extra credit project. I believe that it is important to bring it up in science class and discuss it, ONCE.

Since you have apparently read the short debate between the Ev/ID players you obviously have a grasp of the dispute, so I think it's reasonable to ask this question:

What exactly would you teach regarding ID. Both Behe's Irreducible Complexity and Dembski's Specified Complexity theories have been soundly falsified by scientific means, at least to the extent that other scientists have taken the two ID movement proponent's positions based upon their own statements, and shown why those statements are palpably false.

Neither Behe nor Dembski has stated an express theorem or scientific experiment that they claim verifies ID. There is no formula or fitness function from which a particular artifact or organism may be calculated as being more likely a product of design, vis-a-vis a product of evolutionary formation.

For example, an evolutionary biologist can measure the total matching genetic material in an orangutan and a human, and conclude that if more than 98% of that material is identical, that the two creatures share some common heritage. The ID proponent can take the same measurement and state that this means that they were both created by the same designer.

However, the evolutionary biologist does not need to invoke a magical mechanism. Mutation and natural selection is demonstrated scientifically using ordinary mathematical and computer modeling methods, to be able to produce organic life under selective pressure. So, there is no "leap" into the supernatural required to infer the evolutionary connection between the human and the orangutan.

For the ID proponent, no mathematical model is proposed to demonstrate that magic must intrude at orangutan ancestor history point A, in order to create conditions suitable for the instantaneous creation of a divergent human ancestor. The ID proponent's entire argument is that "it just can't be an evolutionary process because I don't want it to be one."

If Mr. Dembski's mathematics could actually be applied such that one, for example, could take a matchbox toy car and a piece of raw iron ore, and then map both of the objects down to their most discrete data points (containing elemental materials and physical placement, etc.), and then when the Dembski formula is applied, the function would spit out a number that says, matchbox toy is the product of 50% more design than is the raw ore, THEN there would be something to discuss in a science class.

But, at the moment, ID is pure philosophy. There is no scientific test of anything available, nor has any been proposed. Michael Behe merely proposes that something that appears to be a "purposeful arrangement of parts," is therefore a product of design. But, he proposes no means of measuring how any particular arrangement of parts is more or less likely designed vs. not designed. He falls back on non science and just says, that it "looks" designed, therefore it must "be" designed.

That is not science -- that's philosophy, because there is no test to be applied to the supposed scientific conclusion that the particular artifact is a "purposeful arrangement of parts."

Furthermore, when I think hard about the universe, I cannot conjure up a single artifact that could "not" be viewed philosophically as a "purposeful arrangement." A hydrogen atom is as likely a product of design as is a Boeing 747, because there is no measuring device available to discriminate between the two objects.

All we have is our "beliefs" and those beliefs, if we are to accept the more theistic available, would hold unequivocally, that both the 747 and the hydrogen atom are absolutely the product of a design and are both a "purposeful arrangement of parts." Furthermore, if we accept the existence of an all powerful creator, then the 747 is actually the creator's arrangement of parts, not the product of human industry, because the creator knows all and directs all and so nothing we do in this universe is not already predetermined in advance. The creator could decide that we need to leave one last rivet off of the fuselage or add one more and we wouldn't know one way or the other, or even if the creator had intervened.

The point is that unless ID proposes a method under which its propositions (or as Z refers to them, "self-evident observations") may be measured, then ID is merely a philosophical muse, incapable of being the subject of any scientific investigation, but certainly capable of philosophic discussion.

Why anyone would want this philosophic discussion to take place in a science classroom, with the particular intent being to expose students to the fact that scientists acknowledge that everything that science has learned about the universe is fundamentally wrong, and that the alternative truth is that a creator did everything and continues to maintain complete control over everything and everyone, is completely beyond my understanding.

Science's purpose is to find natural answers to natural questions, not to find supernatural answers to natural or supernatural questions. Science cannot find natural answers to supernatural questions because finding the answer would make the supernatural natural by definition. So the only proposition left is for science to add finding supernatural answers to natural and supernatural questions.

And, that, EXACT proposition USED to be the means by which a particular branch of SCIENCE operated. That branch of science was (and is) called ALCHEMY, which is the practice of science combined with mysticism. However, alchemy was long ago dismissed as having any use in the process of discovery, precisely because the mystical component operates as a roadblock to scientific investigation. Mysticism permits a supernatural answer to a natural question, and thus forecloses further natural investigation.

In summary, if you want alchemy to be the proper field of study in public schools, then you should come right out and say so. But, you will be announcing that there is no need to discriminate against any non-scientific endeavor (astrology, palmistry, etc.), because without the constraint of the scientific method, all propositions are equally viable.

As Z stated far up in this thread, ID is viable because its results are observable by anyone who looks around. Evidence of design is everywhere and anyone can see it.

Maybe so, but NO ONE can measure it scientifically, because no one has produced any method of discrimination. ID is therefore an all or nothing proposition, you either believe it or you don't, and you cannot use any scientific device to confirm your proposition, because none exists, and none will ever exist. The existence of a scientific tool that would measure design, would instantly expose God as a "natural" actor in the universe, because the most essential aspect of God's existence is the ability to operate outside the constraints of the natural universe so God cannot be measured or verified, because he/she/it can simply change the rules and invalidate the test results.

ID simply does not belong in a science class, because ID is not science -- it is religion.
This is soooo complicated that any reasonable answer on my part would take me probably a day of back and forth to explain. I just don't have the time to go into it now. I have gone into this before on ET. I will do a search and post a link in this thread to a previous response as to why I believe in ID.

nitro
 
Ah hell, let's go ahead and teach ID in science class. Here's the lesson:

God made the universe and the laws that govern it. As far as we are concerned though, this changes nothing.

End of ID lesson.

Now get back to work.
 
Quote from Ricter:

Ah hell, let's go ahead and teach ID in science class. Here's the lesson:

God made the universe and the laws that govern it. As far as we are concerned though, this changes nothing.

End of ID lesson.

Now get back to work.
That may be a joke, but it is not far from the truth!

nitro
 
We should educate, not dictate belief systems, either theistic or atheistic belief systems.

Anyway you cut it, a belief system that suggests life exists with no plan or design is atheistic in nature.

We don't need scientific dogma replacing theistic dogma, which is exactly what has happened. We see controlling folks who live in fear of children being exposed to different ideas.

We finally have an opportunity to say to children, decide for yourself what you want to believe. Here are the competing theories, here is why these people believe in these theories, here are what we see as the strong and weak points of each theory....now the children can select from either of these theories, neither or these theories, a combination of these theories, etc.

Educate, don't dictate narrow minded theories as truths, educate, don't mandate a particular theory, educate, don't indoctrinate.

To me the reaction from the so called "scientific" community, or its representation here at ET by certain posters.....is absurd.

We see folks here who are chomping at the bit to tell everyone why ID is not valid. They want to shout down those who suggest alternative ideas.

Have the debate in a classroom, let the children decide what to think....

So why not expose children to both theories, let the proponents speak on behalf of each theory....then let the one who should be making the decisions, the children, decide which if any theory to embrace or reject.

Sometimes I think I must be in the old Soviet Union as controlling as folks are in the ET forums.

____________________________

On a very practical level what do we see? We see more and more children being "educated" at home or in private schools. Why is that? Because parents don't want atheistic teaching forced down the throats of their kids. All they are asking for is to have both competing theories taught, to give their kids a choice, to not have the state indoctrinating their children into a particular belief system about life. Were ID taught, they would be happy to have their kids back in public schools in many instances.

Isn't that understandable what they are doing? Wouldn't the scientific parents want to be doing the same thing if only an ID version were taught in public schools? Wouldn't they want their children exposed to the belief systems they thought important for education?

I see a major problem if parents are taking kids out of public schools, which teach more than the math, science, etc. They teach exposure to other ideas, other cultures, other kids, etc. The school system is made stronger through diversity of thought, people become better thinkers when they learn how to think about life....not when they are told what to think about life. Kids learn more about life, how to live with others through the public school system, not in cloistered environments.

This split and divisiveness is completely unnecessary, and only requires compromise from both sides on this issue.

Teach a non denominational ID, which only teaches that life is from some source of order, not random change. Let the evolutionary folks teach their view that life is a product of random chance. Even some atheists have proposed this, and ID could be taught that life is possibly by the design of aliens from another world, or human beings of billions and billions of years ago who created this solar system, etc. We don't need all the facts to teach the value of logical deduction and inference. It is not necessary to know the shape, form or specifics, it is not necessary to know the programmer to recognize that there is a code and a program running on a computer. It is only necessary to understand that life is logically possible by design, as much as it is logically possible to be by random chance.

What is the harm in offering both points of view? I really can't see it.

I only see benefit by demystifying the whole thing, and plainly and simply telling children what we know, what we really don't know, and what different people believe.

Quote from nitro:

I don't disagree with anything you said in your post. This statement warrants a response.

Wouldn't this be better served by having an ethics course be required as part of your education? Ethics (which encompasses morals) can and does encompass the wisdom of religion(s). Ethics is a branch of Philosophy and can be taught there, or it can certainly be taught as part of a Divinity course.

In other words, Sex Education (as in sex for fun and it's potential consequences, not the scientific sex-for-reproduction) is not taught in Biology class but as a separate subject, even though you learn about sex in Biology. In History class you learn about wars and killing, but no mention is made of ethics there.

Still, I catch your drift.

nitro
 
Z, did you say, BOTH theories?

All two of them?



"To me the reaction from the so called "scientific" community is absurd.

We see folks here who are chomping at the bit to tell everyone why ID is not valid.

So why not expose children to both theories, let the proponents speak on behalf of each theory....then let the one who should be making the decisions, the children, decide which if any theory to embrace or reject."


I was one of those children, and here is my conclusion-there is no sign of intelligent life on earth, why would i beleive it was designed intelligently?

Like nitro mentioned, it takes like 5 minutes to put forward everything id has to offer.
Unlike an opinion from Z.....
:D
 
The children HAVE ALREADY BEEN exposed to both explanations. In fact, the children have been exposed to far more than just two explanations. But over time, as those kids grew up, observing, learning, the one explanation was found to be useful, the others not so much. Those kids were our ancestors.

And no, I was not joking. Go ahead and teach ID. Tell today's kids that some ID'er created everything and the laws that govern it. Then ask them how we're gonna get that plane to fly, or that dam to hold water.
 
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