Intelligent design not so intellignt.

[Wallet]

Quote from Free Thinker:

do you think it would harm you in any way to actually listen to what a respected cell biologist had to say on the subject?

Once again, I did and I disagree with his rational. His basis is founded on the fact that the smaller parts ( taking away proteins from the whole) making up the flagellum are themselves compete. Basically evolution used smaller protein building blocks with identifiable characteristics to construct the larger bio-machines. But this is just the same debate only carried down a level or two. Those smaller blocks are made up of smaller parts, made up of smaller parts, ect...

Here I as well as Miller, as referenced in the Pigliucci interview see structure or design.

The question you have to answer is that structure a random byproduct of nature or by actual design. These possibilities are laid out in the in Miller's confession to Pigliucci, as none are provable at the moment.

I believe they are designed, if you believe other, that's your prerogative. But don't criticize me when you are trying to ram your beliefs, as they are in essence theory themselves.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from Wallet:


I believe they are designed, if you believe other, that's your prerogative. But don't criticize me when you are trying to ram your beliefs, as they are in essence theory themselves.

here is another christian biologist who believes that we evolved. you a laman who admitted he knows very little about biology finds himself in disagreement with two respected christian biologists.
do you think you are more knowledgable than these two experts who are also christians?



Actually, I find no conflict here, and neither apparently do the 40 percent of working scientists who claim to be believers. Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things. By Dr. Francis Collins
Special to CNN Editor's note: Francis S. Collins, M.D., Ph.D., is the director of the Human Genome Project. His most recent book is "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief." http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.commentary/index.html

 

[Lucrum]

Quote from Free Thinker:

are you anti education?

No.

I missed your answer to this question: ..."how many converts to, whatever you are, have you counted since your campaign to educate the uneducated began?"

 

[peilthetraveler]

Quote from Free Thinker:

can you think of any reason a self described loving god would design suffering of newborn babies into his perfect design?

Struggle is one thing that can make humans grow spiritually. When you see a suffering newborn baby, dont you want to help them? Many people do want to help and some will go on to help. Maybe a person will see a suffering newborn baby and then dedicate their life to helping others. Those others he helped, some will remember the kindness they were shown and go on to help others too. Maybe 1000s of people (like drug users, theives, prostitutes, or other people like that) who were suffering because of their own sins that put them in their situations, will now be put on the right path and go on to help others of their own kind or of a different kind. Why did all those people get help? Because of one suffering newborn that probably died shortly after being born and is in heaven now.

Maybe the empathy felt by 1 person for that suffering newborn, would eventually bring 1000s of others to Christ and save them from hell.

Maybe if we as humans didnt break so many commandments on a daily basis, there would be no need for these babies to suffer in the first place. But men love their sins, dont they?

I bet if you had kids you would give them a vaccine shot even though it temporarily causes suffering for a few minutes for the baby, right? You give them the vaccine because you believe it will save them from greater suffering later. How is it any different with God? He creates a little suffering now, to save many from greater suffering later.

You wanted to know if we could think of ANY reason. Well there is one.

 

[Wallet]

Quote from Free Thinker:


DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things. By Dr. Francis Collins

Think about what you post. Duh, we are related to all living things?

Same argument applies, we are all built from the same building blocks when you look small enough, it's no surprise that we seem similar. But move one small DNA part and see what happens.

It's the way we and our surroundings are constructed that speaks to design, think fine-tuned universe, and specified complexity.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from Wallet:

But move one small DNA part and see what happens.

we know exactly what happened. in fact that is what collins and miller are trying to explain to you. they have identified the exact point of fusion of two primate chromosomes that resulted in human chromosome #2. other than those two fused chromosomes human and other primate dna are the same. that is how humans evolved.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk
Dr. Ken Miller talks about the relationship between Homo sapiens and the other primates. He discusses a recent finding of the Human Genome Project which identifies the exact point of fusion of two primate chromosomes that resulted in human chromosome #2.

 

[Wallet]

Quote from Free Thinker:

we know exactly what happened. in fact that is what collins and miller are trying to explain to you. they have identified the exact point of fusion of two primate chromosomes that resulted in human chromosome #2. other than those two fused chromosomes human and other primate dna are the same. that is how humans evolved.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk
Dr. Ken Miller talks about the relationship between Homo sapiens and the other primates. He discusses a recent finding of the Human Genome Project which identifies the exact point of fusion of two primate chromosomes that resulted in human chromosome #2.

I understand Miller's position. The fused chromosome primate, was it spontaneous? And how could it reproduce by itself? Let alone survive with such a drastically altered dna structure, scientists today look for much smaller mutations in a persons dna for the susceptibility of cancers and such.

Once again, IMHO, it's designed and placed in that order, not a mutation.

 

[PatternRec]

I have little problem with someone believing in Intelligent Design. In fact, I don't even mind if it is taught in school as an alternative viewpoint alongside abiogenesis and evolution. (though abiogensis is rarely taught or explored in high school science, if you introduce ID, you would have to discuss abiogenesis.)

Why?

Since ID theory by necessity requires embracing real science in order to support its theories, it broadens the mind and trains it towards inquiry and reason. There's no where near the amount of rejection of science and evidence that Young Earth Creationism does. What's more, ID doesn't support the majority of Genesis and Qu'ran interpretations. Something which would foster an inquiring mind in youth making them somewhat less prone to dogma.

If some, after learning about ID and abiogenesis, still believe in God or start to believe in God, great. At least they are on a more rational footing. They would also likely come away with a deeper appreciation of their conceptualization of God. Also, their interpretations of the Bible, since they have been armed with the ability to reason and question, would lead to a more harmonious approach.

Bottom line; I'm not opposed to people believing in God. I find that I'm very much opposed to the harmful things people do and justify because of their belief in God or gods. All the same, many wonderful and altruistic things have been done in this world because of belief in God or gods.

And to fairly balance things, atheism is responsible for many wonderful things as well as some horrific things.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from Lucrum:

No.

I missed your answer to this question: ..."how many converts to, whatever you are, have you counted since your campaign to educate the uneducated began?"

i think you ment deconversions. exact numbers i dont have but education by me and others is starting to free people from mental bondage:

July 13, 2009

Is religion dying in America
Randy Mitchell Staff Writer


Ada — Religion may be fading away from people’s lives, according to a recent survey.

Trinity College conducted the American Religious Identification Survey, which analyzed religious trends occurring in the U.S. during the last 18 years. The results were not good for people of faith.

According to the survey, the groups that experienced the largest increase were those belonging to no religion, which had a 138 percent growth in the 18-year period. The number of non-religious groups, which includes atheists and agnostics, grew from 14.3 million in 1990 to 34.1 million in 2008.

While atheism and agnosticism have increased, the number of those who consider themselves Christians has decreased, with 86 percent claiming to be Christian in 1990 compared to the 76 percent in 2008.

George Warren, pastor of First United Methodist Church, said he is concerned about the survey.

“I’m troubled,” Warren said. “I think the church has fallen down.”

 

[peilthetraveler]

Quote from PatternRec:


And to fairly balance things, atheism is responsible for many wonderful things...

You cant just say that and then not give us some examples. Please list some of these "wonderful" things.