Intelligent Design is not creationism

[2cents]

Quote from Jampilier:

I'll do my best.

Repeating:

Give me an example of a hybrid "species" that is fertile with itself and not fertile with either parent species.

i certainly have examples that fit your above terms as they are, and that you could find out about yourself if you knew what you are talking about...

but what do i get in return? more erroneous assertions? more biology 101 questions? how about going to a real school?

repeating:
and then you'll stop making erroneous assertions?

 

[Jampilier]

Quote from john dough:

Any/every existing species whose ancestors are now extinct satisfies your silly request.

Now you're being silly.

Tell me the species names of two parents and their hybridization that is fertile with itself and infertile with both parents, and I'll go look them up and get back to you.

 

[2cents]

Quote from Jampilier:

Tell me the species names of two parents and their hybridization that is fertile with itself and infertile with both parents, and I'll go look them up and get back to you.

not good enough pal... particularly after making erroneous assertion after erroneous assertion

say we provide that, as per your above terms, nothing more nothing less... what do u say it will prove to you that you are willing to admit to now on this board?

 

[john dough]

Quote from Jampilier:

Now you're being silly.

Tell me the species names of two parents and their hybridization that is fertile with itself and infertile with both parents, and I'll go look them up and get back to you.

Nothing silly about it, ZZZzzzzzzz.

You have set up conditions which are not remotely representative of natural speciation.

In your test, species A cannot breed with species B, to produce a fertile offspring C, which cannot breed with either A or B, because by your own definition of species, if A and B could breed to produce a fertile offspring, then A and B would be members of the same species -- a fact which would violate your initial test conditions.

Natural speciation almost always occurs as a consequence of long term geographic isolation, where two groups of the same species diverge chromosomally until they are no longer cross fertile.

As your start conditions are invalid, no one will be able to meet your requirements. Which, of course, is what you want to ensure as the ultimate outcome.

However, in the unlikely event you are willing to accept a representative definition of "speciation," then I can provide evidence to verify it. .

 

[2cents]

Quote from john dough:

Nothing silly about it.

You have set up an impossible test.

Species A cannot breed with species B, to produce a fertile offspring C, which cannot breed with either A or B, because by your own definition of species, if A and B could breed to produce a fertile offspring, then A and B would be members of the same species -- a fact which would violate your initial test conditions.

Furthermore, who elected you the declarant of what is or is not a scientific proof of observed speciation?

Speciation almost always occurs as a consequence of long term geographic isolation, where two groups of the same species diverge chromosomally until they are no longer cross fertile.

The conditions which you have set up are completely unreasonable and unrepresentative of how speciation occurs in nature.

not so john, you may want to revisit... there are known cases meeting Jampi's terms

 

[john dough]

Quote from 2cents:

not so john, you may want to revisit... there are known cases meeting Jampi's terms

Z's test is a catch-22, for the reasons already stated. And, you're gonna let him move the target on you as soon as you produce any evidence, unless you force him to adopt a reasonable scientific definition of speciation -- something which he will never do -- at least not intentionally.

 

[Jampilier]

Quote from john dough:

Natural speciation almost always occurs as a consequence of long term geographic isolation, where two groups of the same species diverge chromosomally until they are no longer cross fertile.

Nevertheless, at some point, species A must develop a first member of species B, if B is a product of the direct evolution of A.

An instance of that, or the original:

What are the species names of two parents and their hybridization that is fertile with itself and infertile with both parents? We can examine how viable this process is as well.

Species: a group whose members can interbreed.

 

[2cents]

Quote from john dough:

Z's test is a catch-22, for the reasons already stated. And, you're gonna let him move the target on you as soon as you produce any evidence, unless you force him to adopt a reasonable scientific definition of speciation -- something which he will never do -- at least not intentionally.

i don't care if jampi or zizzz are the same or different species...

basically there are positive answers to jampi's question... if you find them, don't blow it... if he's got any balls, i am expecting him to meet this test first:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1279073&highlight=erroneous#post1279073

what is he afraid to lose?

 

[2cents]

tick tock tick tock tick tock.... so how about those balls jampy matey?

 

[stu]

Quote from 2cents:
.......

what is he afraid to lose?

... an intelligent creator.