Chance is not a cause. Do you dispute this?
Intelligent Design is not creationism
- Thread starter Teleologist
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Gotta love how people could even to think of questioning the design of the Designer of the Universe...as if...from what platform could they even begin to understand the answer?
Just like an infant asking Stephen Hawking in a childish demanding tone: "but why?" as if the infant in their undeveloped brain could understand the answer.....so it is with finite beings who think they could ask an Infinite Being "why" and understand the answer...
Hubris, to the max...
Oh, and random design comes from the design (program) of a designer (programmer).
Design is cause, random ignorant designer-less chance is causeless....
Just like an infant asking Stephen Hawking in a childish demanding tone: "but why?" as if the infant in their undeveloped brain could understand the answer.....so it is with finite beings who think they could ask an Infinite Being "why" and understand the answer...
Hubris, to the max...
Oh, and random design comes from the design (program) of a designer (programmer).
Design is cause, random ignorant designer-less chance is causeless....
You asked some good questions in that post. I would say that ID'ers don't have as much of a problem with the idea of 'randomness' as Z itself does. This is because it hasn't kept up with the latest developments coming out of mathematics and geometry.
With regard to your second question, it's the whole idea of the scientific method that riles faith-mongers because it means that there can be challenges to the 'received' morality of religion. If science shows us that humans are chromosomally variant, and that behavioural tendencies (please note the word tendencies) can be predicted by this or that chromosomal configuration, that is a hardened steel wrench in the faithworks, because the 'received' version of what is or isn't moral behaviour can be questioned. This is just one narrow example of how science threatens the extremely faithful.
The very faithful have always had trouble reconciling omniscience with the individual's ability to choose his own path. Plenty of priests have argued this one amongst themselves. Randomness must disturb them on general principles, since religious faith is all about being comforted. Not knowing = discomfort.
Yes... to the faith-mongers, asking 'why' means banishment and persecution, for the faithful must never ask 'why', but accept and submit.
For the rest of us, to ask 'why' is the very essence of being human. It is the distillation of the human spirit, and the engine of progress.
It was actually a relief to see one of the faith-mongers actually come out and admit that it is the asking of 'why' that they fear so much.
I want to say here that I refer only to religious fanatics like Z. I am sure that the majority of Christians would never stand behind such an absurd statement as the one Z just made about the value of asking the question 'why'.
Could there be any clearer proof of Z's cowardice than this post?
this is not what is meant by randomness, but... i'll play along and assume you are not just playing semantics here. why the need for a "cause"? to be clearer perhaps, for an "immediate" cause?
i suppose whats at stake here is the "avent" of man and the "cause" for it, correct?
you see, where i would be coming from on this is:
. we have no way to know at this point that our current carnal envelope on this earth is the 'final' one, if indeed a final one there is
. we have no way to know whether we are indeed the chosen ones or whether we will eventually fail to a worthier life form in the distant but perhaps not so distant future... bear in mind that on this earth, we are predators, and top of the chain, and so will they
. iow, we have no way to know what obstacles lie ahead, other than those that are before our eyes right now...
and that is good
therefore to me it would matter little if my carnal envelope had descended from dust, which i hold from sacred texts that in truth it has... so long as i know that in that particular moment the first human was born, a less random hand would perhaps have found him/her worthy and would have bestowed upon him/her the soul and the vision he/she will need, to walk the long road ahead... for this is only the beginning of the road
to summarize, i honestly think you are picking the wrong battles here
plse kindly share your thoughts on my earlier questions in the previous post
random by design, zizzz, do not be so obtuse, if u do not want to be treated like a child
hubris is in your tone
science is not, and it has never been, neither by purpose nor in fact, the enemy of religion... by that i mean true faith, not uninspired dogmatism... therefore it follows that the real great failure of religion in this era, is the failure to inspire... and this i don't see as a good thing...
as i said before, faith, need not be taught
When I was a child, before I put away childish things, while on some cross country trip...I read on a billboard somewhere:
"Why Do The Heathen Rage?"
Naturally, as a child wonders, and not being a product of a dogmatic religious environment, I wondered not only why do the heathen rage, but who were these heathen that rage?
I asked my parents who were these heathens, and why do they rage?
They just laughed, and said:
"If you meet them some day, why don't you ask them why they are heathens, and why do they rage?"
Having now spent sufficient time here at ET reading the condescending and angry posts of atheists who strut along with a massive chip on their shoulder, I begin to understand why...
"Why Do The Heathen Rage?"
Naturally, as a child wonders, and not being a product of a dogmatic religious environment, I wondered not only why do the heathen rage, but who were these heathen that rage?
I asked my parents who were these heathens, and why do they rage?
They just laughed, and said:
"If you meet them some day, why don't you ask them why they are heathens, and why do they rage?"
Having now spent sufficient time here at ET reading the condescending and angry posts of atheists who strut along with a massive chip on their shoulder, I begin to understand why...
Randomness is an illusion caused by incomplete information of the chain of causal events.
Listen very carefully. Creation is utterly powerless. It becomes powerful according to that which you give unto it - the value, the meaning, the purpose, and the function. These things come not from creation itself, but rather they are extended to it; they flow to it. They penetrate creation through the minds - which share one Mind - of each and every one of you.
That is why it is impossible to look upon anything as outside of you. The great glory of the time given unto you - the time you experience as a body-mind upon an apparent planet, upon an apparent physical universe - is this. The great glory and gift of time is that you remain infinitely free to decide how you will choose to perceive creation, and, therefor, imbue it with the power that either reflects illusion and the creations of fear, or extends the good, the holy and the beautiful.
Each time you think a loving thought, you have literally blessed all infinite realms of creation. Each time you have become unwittingly identified with a fearful thought, you have separated yourself from the perfect Love of God, and you have denied your function. Here I am using the term "separation" in that it creates the illusion within your mind that there is something you must separate from in order to find your safety, your invulnerability.
Rather, love embraces all things and trusts all things. Love is the nature of your being. When you become committed to resting only in loving thoughts, you will discover that illusions are just that - they contain no existence. As you learn anew to love, you allow that Love to transform a temporary illusion into that which extends the good, the holy and the beautiful.
The realm of illusion - what appears to be solid matter, of people with different opinions - holds no power to prevent you from bringing forth the blessing than heals all illusion. Yet, that blessing will hold no power until you return to the beginning. The beginning is just that state of unknowing, of not knowing, of realizing your complete ignorance. For Christ does not store perceptions and knowledge.
Herein lies your purpose. Herein lies your function and herein - and only here - is Life.
When you decide to fully accept the one purpose given to you, in reality, there will be nothing that will block your way. Every step you take will, literally, take you through obstacles that dissolve as you approach them. For because you abide in the Mind of God, you know no limitation.
Therefore all of creation awaits your welcome. Creation waits upon you because it is powerless. Being the extension or the reflection of thought, you are the literal creator of the world. that world exists nowhere, save within your own mind.
Forgiveness is the bridge that brings creation to you and you to it. And when you have joined with it through forgiveness, now the embrace is easy, for that creation rests in the palm of your hand. Until forgiveness is genuine, embracing is not possible.
Creation does not wait to swallow you. Creation does not wait upon you to scuttle your dreams and plans. Creation is innocent. Creation waits for you to embrace it.
Therefore, what world must you embrace? Must you travel somewhere to find the world that awaits your welcome? No. Must you go anywhere to discover the ability to bless and heal creation? No. The world that waits your welcome is, quite literally the thoughts and perceptions that you discover streaming through the field of your unique awareness, and that is all.
Beloved friends, chit chatters all, there is nothing outside of you. If you would know God's will for you, merely look upon what is arising within your own mind as a perception, and ask only this:
" Am I willing to use time constructively to embrace this creation passing through the field of my awareness, and bless it with the perfect Love of Christ?"
First, embrace it through forgiveness, which returns it to its neutrality and powerlessness, and then, through that embrace, bless it, and thereby dissolve the illusory power that it seemed to hold.
As you choose to truly practice being the presence of Christ as you cultivate the practice of blessing the world, you will discover a very interesting thing. In reality, there is nothing that is personal. There is only Christ, as God's true and only creation, and the field of illusion that has been birthed through the freedom of that Mind when once it thought, " I wonder if I can create something unlike God?" Those are the two options - love or fear, reality or illusion.
Therefore, all that you see that is unlike Love are merely passing phenomena, arising within the holy Mind of Christ, as temporary attempts to do something different than what Christ is created for. Therefore, when anything arises within the mind, it is truly not necessary to analyze it. Certainly do not argue for it. But rather, come back to the point of ignorance.
It's ok, for example, to look around and say, "I don't know what this is for!"
Regarding egos, it's ok to look around and say, "I don't know what jem and ZZZZzzzz for!"
I myself look around and say, "I don't know what stu and lkh and ZZZZzzz are for!"
They are simply there, and they are what is arising in your mind. Are you willing to bless them? As you do so, your own sense of "I" becomes increasingly transparent until it simply dissolves away in Light, as though it had never been.
At that point you may have to choose a new alias.
You have much more to offer than 2cents.
That Love which has given birth to all things is within you now. All universes arise within you. All of creation waits your welcome. Creation waits upon your welcome by merely holding a thought such as, "All right, it's all arising within me anyway. I've tried a million ways to avoid ZZZZzzz and get away from him, and yet, he seems to follow me whereever I go. I might as well sit down at my computer, have a nice cold glass of water, listen to some good music, and simply bless him". This is the moment that is crying out for Love. This is the moment that will be repeated ad nauseam until somebody decides to bless him. It might as well be you! This analogy may be extended to all creation.
Blessings,
Jesus
well, these developments do raise huge ethical & societal issues, don't they?
as an ex-project manager, no tongue-in-cheek, i'd definitely want to have religious leaders on board with what's being done, at least have a say... i mean, it's not like we are trying to build sthg against another part of humanity, right? therefore, buy-in is all-important, regardless of the delays that that may cause... and yes i know, in some cases it does mean less lives being saved perhaps, but even then, that shldn't be used as a pretext to rush research that is deemed unconscionable by a wide constituency, majority or not... dialogue should prevail
that being said, personally, i am pro-choice, anti-discrimination on any grounds whatsoever, but not pro-gay adoption for instance... although i cld live with a majority vote on that... just chit chatting...