Intelligent Design is not creationism

Quote from jem:

Right now you have physicists debating the Anthropic Principle -- if you were giving a fair shake to boths sides you would stop writing as if the design argument has no merit.

If you wish to write that way then you should provide science that counters the anthropic principle

Physicists are not debating AP. Some of them are speculating because they haven't found good answers to a lot of questions. AP is not within the domain of physics.

BTW, why are you believing physicists now? I remember you were quite against them when you were debating global warming with me.
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

...Probably why you don't even make your own arguments, but rather say "Go watch this guy tell you what I think."
Why bother reinventing the wheel for someone who, as you have amply demonstrated here in this thread by any objective measure, would not even know how to use it. My time may not be all that valuable by some standards, but it is certainly worth more than that to me.

And now I will let you continue with your implicit, albeit less-than-subtle, ad hominems towards others. (For someone who repeatedly puts posters down in other threads, you certainly seem to like using that term with an air of self-righteous indignation. A true study in contrasts.)
 
RESPONSES IN CAPS...

Quote from jem:

the links were not the point KJ I was talking about the statement about radiation.

THE STATEMENT ABOUT RADIATION IS AN UNSUPPORTED CONCLUSION APPEARING IN A NON-PEER REVIEWED WIKI ARTICLE. IT COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY YOU, BECAUSE WIKI REQUIRES NO CREDENTIALS TO POST/EDIT WITHIN THE WEBSITE.

You keep saying there is no evidence to support.

I keep tellling you the conclusions top physicists draw from understanding the ramifications of AP are solid.

CITE THE WORK OF A "TOP" PHYSICIST WHO ASSERTS PROOF FOR THE EXISTENCE OF AN INTELLIGENT DESIGNER IN A PEER-REVIEWED ARTICLE.

You have not engaged on one of the points.

I'VE ANSWERED EVERY CHALLENGE -- YOU HAVE ANSWERED NOTHING.

How do you accuont for the cosmological constant?

IT'S A MEASUREABLE PROPERTY OF LOCAL SPACE-TIME -- NO DIFFERENT THAN THE MEASUREMENT OF SOLAR RADIATION WHICH STRIKES THE EARTH DURING ANY CERTAIN TIMESPAN.

DR. SUSSKIND EXPRESSLY STATES THAT THE CONSTANT HAS ONLY BEEN MEASURED LOCALLY, AND IT MAY NOT BE THE SAME IN OTHER PARTS OF THE UNIVERSE (OR IN OTHER UNIVERSES, ASSUMING THAT THEY EXIST).

BUT SUPPOSE THE CONSTANT IS CONSTANT. SO WHAT? THAT DOESN'T PROVE THAT THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED WITH HUMANS IN MIND. IT ONLY PROVES THAT HUMANS CAN EVOLVE IN A UNIVERSE WITH THE COSMOLOGICAL CONSTANT AS MEASURED.

ANYTHING MORE, IS PURE SPECULATION.

When you read the wikipedia article your read about possible counters to the anthropic principle. "Possible counters."

WHEN I READ WIKI-"ANYTHING," I EXAMINE THE REFERENCES, BECAUSE WIKI IS AN INHERENTLY UNRELIABLE INFORMATION MEDIUM, DUE TO ITS NEAR TOTAL LACK OF LIABILITY FOR MISINFORMATION.

I WOULD NEVER CITE WIKI DIRECTLY, ALTHOUGH I WOULD CITE A REPUTABLE REFERENCE FOUND THEREIN.

I have provided you with one of the creators of string theory, saying that if his theory about landscapes proves to be incorrect than science is hard pressed to explained the fine tunings of the universe and ansewer the IDers.

YOUR INTERPRETATION OF SUSSKIND'S WORK HAS BEEN REFUTED BY SUSSKIND IN HIS OWN VOICE. YOUR CITED MAGAZINE ARTICLE IS FROM 2005 -- MY AUDIO INTERVIEW IS FROM 2006.

do you want God to come out of the sky and say he exists. is that the level of proof you seek?

THAT IS INSUFFICIENT PROOF. THERE IS NO WAY OF DETERMINING WHETHER THE ENTITY SPEAKING FROM THE SKY IS GOD, OR MERELY SOME SUPERTECHNOLOGICAL NATURAL LIFEFORM.

THE ONLY MEANS OF PROVING GOD IS TO PHYSICALLY DIE, AND THEN MEET GOD IN HEAVEN. NO OTHER PROOF WILL SUFFICE.

Right now you have physicists debating the Anthropic Principle -- if you were giving a fair shake to boths sides you would stop writing as if the design argument has no merit.

YOU HAVE YET TO PROVIDE A SINGLE PEER-REVIEWED ARTICLE WHEREIN A REPUTABLE PHYSICIST PERFORMS A SCIENTIFIC TEST CONFIRMING INTELLIGENT DESIGN.

UNTIL SUCH AN ARTICLE IS PUBLISHED, INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS PURE SPECULATION, DONE BY ADMITTEDLY BRILLIAN MATHEMATICIANS, BUT PURE MATHEMATICS ABSENT ACTUAL PHYSICAL TEST CONFIRMATION IS NOT SCIENCE. IT'S JUST SYMBOLIC LOGIC.

If you wish to write that way then you should provide science that counters the anthropic principle.

YOU'VE ALREADY DONE THAT FOR ME. EVERY ARTICLE YOU HAVE THUS FAR CITED CONCLUDES THAT THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE IS AN ILLUSION.
 
Fine by me if you can't express your own opinion, make an argument, dialogue on that.

The topic is ID, but you want to make this about me?

You sure do seem to have an axe to grind, go ahead if it makes you feel better TK9...

Quote from Thunderdog:

Why bother reinventing the wheel for someone who, as you have amply demonstrated here in this thread, would not even know how to use it. My time may not be all that valuable by some standards, but it is certainly worth more than that to me.

And now I will let you continue with your implicit, albeit less-than-subtle, ad hominems towards others. (For someone who repeatedly puts posters down in other threads, you certainly seem to like using that term with an air of self-righteous indignation. A true study in contrasts.)
 
Quote from kjkent1:

A "true" scientist will say that there is a limit to our present ability to measure the uncertainty of evolutionary change. However, within the limits of our present ability to measure that change, we have determined no pattern. Furthermore, we have demonstrated, via a simple algorithm, that information gain is possible, without the introduction of any external influence other than what we currently measure as uncertainty.

Give all of the above, we currently conclude that evolutionary change occurs under suitable conditions, without the introduction of any certain influence (design).

Is it conceivable that an external influence exists? Yes, but it is presently scientifically unmeasurable, THEREFORE, until it can be measured, no external influence exists within the realm of scientific investigation.

The analogy to the above is that the number PI cannot be measured with certainty. No matter how refined the measurement becomes, no pattern of decimal accuracy has yet appeared.

So, the scientist states that PI cannot be scientifically measured with perfect accuracy, but for all conceivable practical purposes, PI is measurable within whatever limits reasonably required.

What the scientist does NOT DO, is say: "Because we cannot yet measure PI with absolute certainty, we will refrain from stating or teaching that circles exist, because it remains merely a theory."

This is exactly what you're doing, Z. You are saying because we can't exclude the possibility of a pattern in evolution with absolute certainty, that we can't teach evolution as a fact -- instead it must remain a science fiction.

In your world, circles apparently cannot exist until the pattern behind PI is absolutely excluded -- and evolution does not exist, for the same reason.

Game. Set. Match
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Fine by me if you can't express your own opinion, make an argument, dialogue on that.

The topic is ID, but you want to make this about me?

You sure do seem to have an axe to grind, go ahead if it makes you feel better TK9...

You're the one who's making this about you, clearly.

T-Dog, always remember. The troll wins by losing. If it confuses you that he accuses you of the very fallacious, muddled, pure assertion, ad hominem and 'I know you are but what am I' arguments that are his stock-in-trade, let it go - it's all part of the plan.
 
Nonsense.

Randomness is assumed and then something designed around this assumption.

If it were not random, but designed and yet not known as designed, tests would still work.

Doh!

Entire theory based on assumption, then theory is engineered to fit the assumption.

That is not science, that is circular reasoning...


Quote from james_bond_3rd:

One important consequence of randomness is temperature. If one denies randomness, then there is no statistical way to define a temperature.

Is z10 trying to tell us that we're not supposed to know how hot it is? :D
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Nonsense.

Randomness is assumed and then something designed around this assumption.

If it were not random, but designed and yet not known as designed, tests would still work.

Doh!

Entire theory based on assumption, then theory is engineered to fit the assumption.

That is not science, that is circular reasoning...

Nonsense.

Do you know what a temperature is? (hint: it's related to something called "entropy.")

If you don't, don't open your mouth.
 
Quote from james_bond_3rd:

Nonsense.

Do you know what a temperature is? (hint: it's related to something called "entropy.")

If you don't, don't open your mouth.

Funny. Sad, too

See my attachment for learning the antidote to your belief about the importance and the effects of entropy as applied to how it all works.
 
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