Intelligent Design is not creationism

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

You lost me here. The universe has had a very short life (relatively speaking). What did you mean here?
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A short life only if you accept the currently accepted cosmological model. My point is that as soon as you insert a creator, you throw science out the window and everything becomes possible, including a universe with an infinite lifespan.

If the universe has existed forever in some state between expansion and collapse, then there's infinite time for a creator to evolve and then take over the process of creation.

The fact that we observe entropy and that it would provide a barrier to the life span of the universe isn't relevant, because it's quite conceivable for some other cosmological effect to appear in the future which we have yet to observe but which would add new energy to the universe (e.g., a white hole).
 
Quote from tradeslikagod:


If there is a god then he is pissing himself laughing
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Yes. This world is for the purpose of mocking and killing the Son of God...the one mind that is used to make it.

Every time guilt is layed upon his shoulders, the Son of God is mocked.

Every time he experiences deja-vu, he is mocked.

Every time he misses a rent payment, he is mocked.

Every time a girlfreind breaks up with him, he is mocked.

Every time he enters traffic to work 8-5, he is mocked.

Everytime his account balance gets low, he is mocked.

Every time he cannot figure out how the universe is built, he is mocked.

...and then he is killed.

Jesus
 
Quote from Hansel H:

From this I deduce that you are potentially a supporter of cosmological ID. All we need do now is to move you from possible god to probable god to capital 'G' God.
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You can use a capital 'G' because of equality, but not a self-created capital 'G'.

If he does not realize this, it is proof that the universe under discussion is an expression of the mind's self unawareness.

Jesus
 
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

You lost me here. The universe has had a very short life (relatively speaking). What did you mean here?
More...

Try to understand, all time is holographic. It is not linear.

The universe was made simultaneously, in a single instant. Time is just the dividing of that instant into instants within instants.

The experience of linearity of time keys off of guilt.

Guilt is a consciousness that requires there be a past in which you must have committed a crime. It also requires there be a future, a time when you will be punished for past crimes.

Put this kind of consciousness in the mind that makes this universe, and you have many experiences of linearity, after the mind is broken into pieces. And each is voluntarily crucified one way or another.

The instant this universe was "made", it was unmade. It's maker was fanatically intent upon making it last forever, thereby replacing the Kingdom of God in the mind of the Son.

Not only is it all in the past now, it does not exist.

You seem to linger because you still feel guilty, still harboring wishes that it be prolonged. You linger because of Who you are. You are treated with the utmost respect and equality by our Father, and by the Guide he sent to bring you home. He can only work by your invitation.

Behind this universe is Reality still standing gloriously. It cannot be seen with eyes of flesh, for they were made to see only darkness...to see only the devil's machinations.

While this universe blinds your sight to what is behind, you are unable to guide others out of it.

Time is not moving past you. You are worming your way through a rotten apple, and valuing the taste.

Jesus
 
Quote from Hansel H:

Aha! Interesting. Very interesting. You allow for the coexistence of a possible god and evolution - not only evolution but a failed evolution - the embedded supposition being that this evolution would be purposeful, i.e. part of some grand design!
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Because time is holographic and not linear, the appearance of evolution is by design.

The design is to decieve anyone who thinks, that their origin comes from within this universe....keeping them chained within this universe.

So it's purpose is to blatently deny reality, in-line with the rest of "the universe".

Your origin is not of this world.




Jesus
 
Quote from kjkent1:

A short life only if you accept the currently accepted cosmological model. My point is that as soon as you insert a creator, you throw science out the window and everything becomes possible, including a universe with an infinite lifespan.
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You're losing me here because the universe is clearly right around 14 billion years old. Their measurements get more refined with each passing decade. So I'm sorry to be confused, but I don't see how a belief in a Creator would cause anyone to say there is no limit to the age of the universe unless you're including the pre-Big Bang "time".

But, by the way, it is possible there time was actually created at the Big Bang, i.e. that God is outside of space/time. This actually was a theorem of Hawking, Penrose and another British astrophysicist. What they did was assume that relativity and then run the equations back to t=0 and the conclusion that can be drawn is that time/space had a beginning.

However, the problem with this theory is that you can't assume relativity before t<10-34 because the universe is the size of a quantum particle. But noone can really prove that it wouldn't be true either...
 
Quote from kjkent1:

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If the universe has existed forever in some state between expansion and collapse, then there's infinite time for a creator to evolve and then take over the process of creation.
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How could this happen? We can see the whole universe for all practical purposes.

There are no secrets...
 
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

How could this happen? We can see the whole universe for all practical purposes.

There are no secrets...
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At the moment, scientists can "see" a huge void in the universe:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070823_huge_hole.html

No one's sure what it is, but my point here is that it's not certain that what we see is all there is to see.

I'm just being argumentative. I don't see a tremendous problem with the conventional big bang theory and the probability that the very first life form arose by dumb luck.

Life only had to come together once. After that, there is no roadblock to common descent or any of the other parts of evolutionary theory.
 
Quote from kjkent1:

At the moment, scientists can "see" a huge void in the universe:

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070823_huge_hole.html

No one's sure what it is, but my point here is that it's not certain that what we see is all there is to see.

I'm just being argumentative. I don't see a tremendous problem with the conventional big bang theory and the probability that the very first life form arose by dumb luck.

Life only had to come together once. After that, there is no roadblock to common descent or any of the other parts of evolutionary theory.
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Okay, but I just want you to know that there are SO many problems with an infinitely old universe that it would be difficult to summarize here. The most popular theory fifty years ago was actually just what you are stating. When Hubble found that almost all galaxies were moving away from us, that changed the whole picture.

There are MANY lines of evidence for an exploding, expanding universe:

1. Direct measurement: we can actually calculate through various means that all galaxies/stars - except those very close to us due to gravitational interactions, etc. - are moving away from us, i.e. all is expanding.
2. The COBE measurements: the bavcground radiation throughout the universe is equal and very small showing post-explosion temperatures throughout the universe.
3. The paradox of the night sky: if the universe were infinite, it would be light day and night.
4. The age of the elements in the stars: Very old radioactive elements are absent and very young are absent, giving a bandwidth for the age of the universe.

I could go on, but a young universe of only 14 billion years is verified in many ways...
 
Quote from tradeslikagod:

Dumb luck theory just doesn't work when applied to big bang.. yes you can make an argument for it once something exists but all the quantum flux and jetsom in the world wont make something out of nothing
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What's your point?

Seriously, I don't know whether your arguing for or against design.
 
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