Intelligent Design is not creationism

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from Hansel H:

Pretty good, SB - except for the "spiritual supercomputer" bit; it's an oxymoron. If we're computers we're certainly not supercomputers; we're not even up to the standards of the earliest hand-held calculators.

You're right in a sense. I know people get amazed when I multiply two two digit numbers in my head!

But, actually, the dense cross-linking and cross-meshing - and "re-wiring" on the fly - of our neurons is actually far beyond a computer of today. Of course, computers have us beat out in some ways and we have them beat out in yet others.

But I just used supercomputers because it is the closest word that I could think of...

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from Hansel H:

We are almost certainly incapable of knowing the mind of God and so can't grasp God's motives, but if God answers a frivolous prayer and ignores a desperate one it has to make you wonder about the nature of God's attitude to our sufferings. Maybe God needs us to suffer so that we can understand something. Jesus suffered. Maybe God suffers.

Well, imo as a Christian, suffering was "woven into the fabric" of life on this earth. I get amused at Christians, through Flood Geology, who try to avoid this fact. It is a very sobering concept for many Christians, but as you age you start to see more and more of the purpose. I never marvel that there is suffering - I do marvel at the amount of suffering. But, of course, as a Christian I trust that God knows what He's doing.

And I absolutely believe God suffers: I think that's why we don't see more of Him...

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from Hansel H:

Why do you waste your time responding to this jejune "God must be incompetent because the world is imperfect" bullshit? God as designer isn't God as engineer.

I hate to admit but I love talking/writing about this stuff. You can't get Christians to talk about it cuzz they're scared silly. And my motives really aren't to convert anyone as to show how incredibly complex the issues are. It disturbs me to see people with an oversimplified worldview. And, no, I'm not sure why!

 

[Hansel H]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

You're right in a sense. I know people get amazed when I multiply two two digit numbers in my head!

But, actually, the dense cross-linking and cross-meshing - and "re-wiring" on the fly - of our neurons is actually far beyond a computer of today. Of course, computers have us beat out in some ways and we have them beat out in yet others.

But I just used supercomputers because it is the closest word that I could think of...

OK, Shoe. Maybe this doesn't apply to you, but historically there's been a tendency for people to understand the human function in terms of the technology of the day. Today it's computers. Think of the many computer metaphors we use to describe our mental functions ( "Joe is programmed to do such and such.." etc. ).

Computers compute; people think. There is a major qualitative difference between computing and thinking. Computing is a mindless, deterministic activity that occurs in the absence of consciousness. Thinking is a function that requires the presence of consciousness. Ironically, of all the things we are conscious of consciousness itself is the most resistant to description.

Anyway, I don't think I'm telling you anything you haven't already thought of; I'm just communicating my own position.

 

[Hansel H]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

I hate to admit but I love talking/writing about this stuff. You can't get Christians to talk about it cuzz they're scared silly. And my motives really aren't to convert anyone as to show how incredibly complex the issues are. It disturbs me to see people with an oversimplified worldview. And, no, I'm not sure why!

It's just your nature. You were probably born with a genetic propensity to ponder and had some sort of support in your earliest, formative years that activated those genes.

Sounds like you're like Turok - hanging out with the wrong kind of Christians. The advent of Christian philosophy marked a major advance in Western thinking; many of the greatest thinkers in Western philosophy have been Christians. Bible-thumping fundamentalists are the antithesis of real Christians; real Christians exercise the minds God gave them.

 

[version77]

Quote from tradeslikagod:

The penchant for Christians to anthropomorphisize the absolute and attribute petty human values to eternal energy is infantile in the extreme

What made you pull that line of crap out of your @ss? Itchy?

 

[Hansel H]

Quote from tradeslikagod:

The penchant for Christians to anthropomorphisize the absolute and attribute petty human values to eternal energy is infantile in the extreme

Please - some Christians. Not all Christians think alike.

In any case, there might be an intresting debate in whether or not anthropomorphism is necessarily infantile. Are we distinct from the 'eternal energy'?

 

[DerekD]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

Let me emphasize that I said only sometimes does God force people to do things in the Bible.

As far as answering prayer in competitive situations, then I agree with you that that is a risky situation at best. That's why - at least in my experience - I never hear Christians (over the age of about 16) praying for a win. They generally pray to 'play their best' and things similar.

Now if I were to pray for a job, I would pray that prayer hoping that I was truly the most qualified. Only if it was a tie would I pray to beat everyone else out.

Just kidding! That's one of my pet peeves about Christian television: they want you to get that check, get that money, get that job by faith. But they leave out all the verses on work, faithfulness and other career-enabling attributes that will get you that job under normal circumstances so you don't have to be hoping for a miracle because you're so dysfunctional and underqualified!

Yes, I see what you are saying. Though I have to think about it more if only on a philosophical level. It seems to me that interfering with anyone's freewill would violate the concept of freewill for all. Free will appears to be a universal attribute shared by all humans. So if a few have had their free will suspended, then all have since all are in jeopardy at some point or the other of having their freewill suspended at some point for whatever purpose.

It's kind of like the concept of sin. All share it according to the bible. Depending on what particular demonination of Christianity one is from, some embrace the concept of original sin. The sin of Adam counting for everyone. In contrast, the sacrifice of Jesus counting for all.

The bible appears to treat humanity as one homogenous bunch. If so, then that supports my thought that maybe freewill is transient at best. By that I mean, only in the mind but not in action.

There's a proverb in the bible as I recall that says something to the effect of, "man plans his way but God directs his steps." That seems to be a tacit admission that there's no freewill of action. I don't know. I just remember that because of a debate between christians on the job. Never bothered to look into it further but just thought it was odd as I didn't know that kind of thing was in the bible.

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from Hansel H:

OK, Shoe. Maybe this doesn't apply to you, but historically there's been a tendency for people to understand the human function in terms of the technology of the day. Today it's computers. Think of the many computer metaphors we use to describe our mental functions ( "Joe is programmed to do such and such.." etc. ).

Computers compute; people think. There is a major qualitative difference between computing and thinking. Computing is a mindless, deterministic activity that occurs in the absence of consciousness. Thinking is a function that requires the presence of consciousness. Ironically, of all the things we are conscious of consciousness itself is the most resistant to description.

Anyway, I don't think I'm telling you anything you haven't already thought of; I'm just communicating my own position.

You're sounding a lot like Roger Penrose. Don't know if he's influenced what you're saying, but I've wanted to read one of his books (even though he's not that well-accepted yet).

If I understand his position, he has basically been saying that consciousness in humans is not deterministic and thus is beyond the classical physics that we are used to. I think he even argues that the human brain is queued up somehow at the microscopic level.

If you know anything about that, I'd love to hear it!

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from Hansel H:

Sounds like you're like Turok - hanging out with the wrong kind of Christians. The advent of Christian philosophy marked a major advance in Western thinking; many of the greatest thinkers in Western philosophy have been Christians. Bible-thumping fundamentalists are the antithesis of real Christians; real Christians exercise the minds God gave them.

That's funny - I've never been compared to Turok. Yes, certain aspects of fundamentalism absolutely drive me crazy. Since you seem knowledgeable, I'll give you just a few examples: Left Behind, Flood Geology and Anti-Supernaturalism (today).

This is all relatively minor stuff (imo) in the grand scheme of things, but I think these positions have all hurt American Christianity significantly.