Intelligent Design is not creationism

In a truly natural world that is believed to be fully a product of random ignorant chance, nothing at all is remarkable except the human mind's recognition or lack of recognition that design and programming is actually at work...

Quote from jem:

These are not even the best arguments.


Besides the BBC video, the scientific establishment's most prestigious journals, and its most famous physicists and cosmologists, have all gone on record as recognizing the objective truth of the fine-tuning. The August '97 issue of "Science" (the most prestigious peer-reviewed scientific journal in the United States) featured an article entitled "Science and God: A Warming Trend?" Here is an excerpt:

The fact that the universe exhibits many features that foster organic life -- such as precisely those physical constants that result in planets and long-lived stars -- also has led some scientists to speculate that some divine influence may be present.

In his best-selling book, "A Brief History of Time", Stephen Hawking (perhaps the world's most famous cosmologist) refers to the phenomenon as "remarkable."

"The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers (i.e. the constants of physics) seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life". "For example," Hawking writes, "if the electric charge of the electron had been only slightly different, stars would have been unable to burn hydrogen and helium, or else they would not have exploded. It seems clear that there are relatively few ranges of values for the numbers (for the constants) that would allow for development of any form of intelligent life. Most sets of values would give rise to universes that, although they might be very beautiful, would contain no one able to wonder at that beauty."

Hawking then goes on to say that he can appreciate taking this as possible evidence of "a divine purpose in Creation and the choice of the laws of science (by God)" (ibid. p. 125).

Dr. Gerald Schroeder, author of "Genesis and the Big Bang" and "The Science of Life" was formerly with the M.I.T. physics department. He adds the following examples:

1) Professor Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in high energy physics (a field of science that deals with the very early universe), writing in the journal "Scientific American", reflects on

how surprising it is that the laws of nature and the initial conditions of the universe should allow for the existence of beings who could observe it. Life as we know it would be impossible if any one of several physical quantities had slightly different values.

Although Weinberg is a self-described agnostic, he cannot but be astounded by the extent of the fine-tuning. He goes on to describe how a beryllium isotope having the minuscule half life of 0.0000000000000001 seconds must find and absorb a helium nucleus in that split of time before decaying. This occurs only because of a totally unexpected, exquisitely precise, energy match between the two nuclei. If this did not occur there would be none of the heavier elements. No carbon, no nitrogen, no life. Our universe would be composed of hydrogen and helium. But this is not the end of Professor Weinberg's wonder at our well-tuned universe. He continues:

One constant does seem to require an incredible fine-tuning -- The existence of life of any kind seems to require a cancellation between different contributions to the vacuum energy, accurate to about 120 decimal places.

This means that if the energies of the Big Bang were, in arbitrary units, not:

100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000,

but instead:
100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000001,

there would be no life of any sort in the entire universe because as Weinberg states:

the universe either would go through a complete cycle of expansion and contraction before life could arise, or would expand so rapidly that no galaxies or stars could form.

2) Michael Turner, the widely quoted astrophysicist at the University of Chicago and Fermilab, describes the fine-tuning of the universe with a simile:

The precision is as if one could throw a dart across the entire universe and hit a bulls eye one millimeter in diameter on the other side.

3) Roger Penrose, the Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford, discovers that the likelihood of the universe having usable energy (low entropy) at the creation is even more astounding,

namely, an accuracy of one part out of ten to the power of ten to the power of 123. This is an extraordinary figure. One could not possibly even write the number down in full, in our ordinary denary (power of ten) notation: it would be one followed by ten to the power of 123 successive zeros! (That is a million billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion zeros.)

Penrose continues,

Even if we were to write a zero on each separate proton and on each separate neutron in the entire universe -- and we could throw in all the other particles as well for good measure -- we should fall far short of writing down the figure needed. The precision needed to set the universe on its course is to be in no way inferior to all that extraordinary precision that we have already become accustomed to in the superb dynamical equations (Newton's, Maxwell's, Einstein's) which govern the behavior of things from moment to moment.

Cosmologists debate whether the space-time continuum is finite or infinite, bounded or unbounded. In all scenarios, the fine-tuning remains the same.

It is appropriate to complete this section on "fine tuning" with the eloquent words of Professor John Wheeler:

To my mind, there must be at the bottom of it all, not an utterly simple equation, but an utterly simple IDEA. And to me that idea, when we finally discover it, will be so compelling, and so inevitable, so beautiful, we will all say to each other, "How could it have ever been otherwise?"


http://www.geraldschroeder.com/tuning.html

-----------------------------------------------
Did you note the second quote from Hawking. Hawking then goes on to say that he can appreciate taking this as possible evidence of "a divine purpose in Creation and the choice of the laws of science (by God)" (ibid. p. 125).

Possilble evidence of God. That is not philosophical it is one of the best minds of the word saying you could take these facts as possible evidence of God.

Now do you have evidence of no God?
 
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Becoming even more hostile.

Par for the course of someone who is losing control....

Hostile? Losing control?

You had 3 chances to make your case but all you did is blow hot air.

LOL. How did it go again? Need to know Vedic scripture in original sanskrit to understand your bullshit? Did you really think that kind of nonsense would fly?

You're a troll.

[ingore]ZZZZZzzzzz[/ignore]
 
@Jem.

Looks like the pro-ID sites that you got those from are pandering to their core constituency who are accustomed to "interpreting" written word to suit their agenda.

Know what I mean? ;)
 
Quote from jem:


It is appropriate to complete this section on "fine tuning" with the eloquent words of Professor John Wheeler:

To my mind, there must be at the bottom of it all, not an utterly simple equation, but an utterly simple IDEA. And to me that idea, when we finally discover it, will be so compelling, and so inevitable, so beautiful, we will all say to each other, "How could it have ever been otherwise?"

Yes, the tiny mad idea of separation. How can it be otherwise? Compelling? Perhaps. Beautiful? Look around! That is in the eye of the beholder.

Jesus
 
Quote from D2.0:

@Jem.

Looks like the pro-ID sites that you got those from are pandering to their core constituency who are accustomed to "interpreting" written word to suit their agenda.

Know what I mean? ;)

Pro id site? who cares - is that some sort of cheap rhetorical trick. -- address the facts.

Hawking then goes on to say that he can appreciate taking this as possible evidence of "a divine purpose in Creation and the choice of the laws of science (by God)" (ibid. p. 125).


That is a quote from his book.

Hawking and other top minds say there is evidence of design. Deal with the science not the web site.
 
Quote from jem:

Pro id site? who cares - is that some sort of cheap rhetorical trick. -- address the facts.

Hawking then goes on to say that he can appreciate taking this as possible evidence of "a divine purpose in Creation and the choice of the laws of science (by God)" (ibid. p. 125).


That is a quote from his book.

Hawking and other top minds say there is evidence of design. Deal with the science not the web site.

No... you deal with the science because the website you got this from added an interpretation *(by God)* of what Hawkings meant by that. Intellectual dishonesty.

See pantheism.

Post the entire section surrounding Hawking's quote. Let's see the context. Can you do that? Post the entire page. If you can't do that then all you're doing is parroting ID propaganda.

That's why it matters where you got this from.
 
Complete loss of control, obviously...

Quote from D2.0:

Hostile? Losing control?

You had 3 chances to make your case but all you did is blow hot air.

LOL. How did it go again? Need to know Vedic scripture in original sanskrit to understand your bullshit? Did you really think that kind of nonsense would fly?

You're a troll.

[ingore]ZZZZZzzzzz[/ignore]
 
Quote from D2.0:

No... you deal with the science because the website you got this from added an interpretation *(by God)* of what Hawkings meant by that. Intellectual dishonesty.

See pantheism.

Post the entire section surrounding Hawking's quote. Let's see the context. Can you do that? Post the entire page. If you can't do that then all you're doing is parroting ID propaganda.

That's why it matters where you got this from.



ID Propaganda

it's modern day terminology for an answer, an answer that has been suggested in the past by people of none and all denominations, to an age-old riddle. If "Intelligent Design" is what Christians call it today, that by no way grants them exclusive rights to the answer to that age-old riddle ...

ID Propaganda

Are Newton's classical mechanics also Propaganda? He happened to be a devout Christian, whose greatest accomplishments where driven by the essence of "Intelligent Design", if not by it in name.

Use some common-sense, most every philosophy of every culture through-out human history has included elements of "Intelligent Design" at its core
 
Quote from pattersb:

ID Propaganda

it's modern day terminology for an answer, an answer that has been suggested in the past by people of none and all denominations, to an age-old riddle. If "Intelligent Design" is what Christians call it today, that by no way grants them exclusive rights to the answer to that age-old riddle ...

ID Propaganda

Are Newton's classical mechanics also Propaganda? He happened to be a devout Christian, whose greatest accomplishments where driven by the essence of "Intelligent Design", if not by it in name.

Use some common-sense, most every philosophy of every culture through-out human history has included elements of "Intelligent Design" at its core

Absolutely. Yep. But so what? Has no relevance to the subject at hand.

ID propaganda, which is a contemporary thing given the context of the discussion, twists meanings and quotes out of context statements of physists and other scientists in order to bolster their non-scientific ideology. Certain quotes of Einstein, Sussking, Hawkins and others are favorites of IDer's to play around with. But taken as a whole, these quotes they use would either serve to discredit the scientists because they make the scientists appear to be in a state of hypocrisy or make the IDer's look like fools because we know for a fact that these scientists are atheist and therefore do not recognize design. And if they somehow make it seem as if they do, they recognize it as nothing more than the order of a natural unguided process.

Either way, the IDer is better off not using them because many times IDer's use these quotes as a "see? they see design too" when arguing with non-Iders while having nothing credible to offer other than appeal to the non-Ider's authority.

What makes this thread stupid is this... Anyone can say that the universe looks designed on some level. It's purely subjective. But do you think that will satisfy an IDer? Nope. They already have in mind who the designer is. And if you come to a tentative conclusion that differs from theirs (Like Zzzzz metaphysical nonesense) ultimately they won't be happy.

They're not as ecumenical as they try to make themselves out to be.

The whole point behind ID isn't to simply determine that things look designed (or find empirical evidence of design), but to acknowledge a designer... AKA a God. And for the grand majority of IDer's, that God is Jehovah. Plain and simple. They're using it to prove the existence of the one behind Gucci/Fendi/DKNY. I mean God the designer.

Pardon me.
 
Here's a little challenge for Iders to put the usefulness of ID in perspective:

SHOW a few USEFUL and TESTABLE predictions using ID theory that CANNOT be made by NON-ID sciences such as Physics, biology, evolutionary biology, chemistry, etc.

Then perhaps we will all see the point of ID better.
 
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