index futures listed on both ICE and CME

[southall]

People keep whining about data fees on ICE but I guarantee you they'll just give it all back once it's on CME.

I noticed no difference in my timeframe between ER2 and TF, it traded the same.
If anything i prefered ER2 over TF. Market Depth and volume was better on CME than ICE.

Heres an old thread from ET from 2007, poster was concerned about volume dropping and he was right.
If i recall ER2 used to do 200K daily volume often and the OP notes a 400K day.
Now its rare to see a day over 100K. Greedy idiots on ICE also killed retail volume on TF by introducing high data fees.

https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/emini-er2-volume-concerns.100480/

 

[Handle123]

Mini Russell will get worse when it heads to CME in my opinion. You're protected against easy cheap arb right now which is what makes TF have different action.

People keep whining about data fees on ICE but I guarantee you they'll just give it all back once it's on CME.

I did well when it was at CME and had decent volume, don't care bout fees, but if little volume, slippage eat ya up.

 

[i960]

I did well when it was at CME and had decent volume, don't care bout fees, but if little volume, slippage eat ya up.

During RTH it has plenty of volume. Additionally, "did well on CME" and comparing it to ER2 references a contract that was trading back in the mid-2000s - market micro-structure has changed a lot since then and if they see similarity between ER2 and TF it's because they aren't ticking it on ICE like they do all the other index contracts on CME. Also, 100$/month is killing everyone on data? That's 10 ticks in the Russell and you get access to even more instruments (yes, the data fees are annoying, I agree - but it's not going to make or break the bank).

Guarantee you it turns to shit once it ends back up at CME.

 

[Handle123]

During RTH it has plenty of volume. Additionally, "did well on CME" and comparing it to ER2 references a contract that was trading back in the mid-2000s - market micro-structure has changed a lot since then and if they see similarity between ER2 and TF it's because they aren't ticking it on ICE like they do all the other index contracts on CME. Also, 100$/month is killing everyone on data? That's 10 ticks in the Russell and you get access to even more instruments (yes, the data fees are annoying, I agree - but it's not going to make or break the bank).

Guarantee you it turns to shit once it ends back up at CME.

I think the bouncing around reason it turns to shit, LOL $100 bucks is nothing, when I first started it was like $1,000 a month with satellite dish. But I still think exchanges shouldn't be charging for it. Walmart doesn't charge me so I can ask what the price is each minute.

 

[southall]

I think the bouncing around reason it turns to shit, LOL $100 bucks is nothing, when I first started it was like $1,000 a month with satellite dish. But I still think exchanges shouldn't be charging for it. Walmart doesn't charge me so I can ask what the price is each minute.

The data fees put newbs off. If you starting out with 10K account you don't want to be paying $1200 a year in fees, that's 12% of your account.
Less dumb money in any market = less easy money for good traders.

I dont mind paying $100 a month either, its not much relative to my account size, but what's to stop the greedy charging $200 or $500 or even a $1000 a month a few years from now. So im glad ICE have lost it, although CME could do the same thing. Cant rule that out, although for now they seem to understand that high retail data fees are not good for volumes.

 

[MattZ]

The data fees put newbs off. If you starting out with 10K account you don't want to be paying $1200 a year in fees, that's 12% of your account.
Less dumb money in any market = less easy money for good traders.

I dont mind paying $100 a month either, its not much relative to my account size, but what's to stop the greedy charging $200 or $500 or even a $1000 a month a few years from now. So im glad ICE have lost it, although CME could do the same thing. Cant rule that out, although for now they seem to understand that high retail data fees are not good for volumes.

Agree with every word. I saw flight from the TF to ES, NQ, FDAX and even emini Nikkei on OSK as a result. I assume once TF trades on the CME again it would be part of the $5 Globex package.

 

[i960]

TF to ES, NQ, FDAX

Kinda interesting that traders who are irked over a 100/month fee (meaning they have small accounts) would take flight to FDAX .

Anyway, I trade other things besides just the Russell so I'm not leaving ICEUS over that (and besides, it's best not to have 1 exchange with all the US futures volume, that's a bad situation to be in). I even pay for ICEEU as well. It's not just ICE BTW, everyone is turned up those knobs (seen the ASX increases lately? This seems like the 2nd one within just a year).

 

[MattZ]

Kinda interesting that traders who are irked over a 100/month fee (meaning they have small accounts) would take flight to FDAX .

agreed and it may have applied for some, but it was also an opportunity for some overseas guys to trade their hours. Also, It was not only TF that was affected, it was the entire ICE sector. TF was 115 and if a trader traded ICE commodities, it was a another $115. So the total started adding up for some.

 

[i960]

agreed and it may have applied for some, but it was also an opportunity for some overseas guys to trade their hours. Also, It was not only TF that was affected, it was the entire ICE sector. TF was 115 and if a trader traded ICE commodities, it was a another $115. So the total started adding up for some.

Not sure if you meant ICE commodities as all their commodities, but that isn't new at all, nor is TF in a different fee structure than ICE US commodities - which it isn't. In fact, ICE fees weren't exactly cheap before, but yes, they do add up for people (including me). My point though is that someone who was paying for ICEUS before for TF and US commodities basically just pays more, the actual offering does not change.

• ICUS/IFUS is a single 110$+ fee for indexes (including MSCI), metals, US ag/softs, etc.
• ICEU/IFEU is a single 110$+ fee for energies (Brent, Gasoil, UK NG), emissions, and UK softs (Robusta, White Sugar, London Cocoa).
• ICEU/IFLL is a single 110$+ fee for indexes (FTSE100), interest rates (Euribor, Short Sterling), etc.

https://www.theice.com/publicdocs/data/Market_Data_Subscriber_Fees.pdf

The fee increases definitely suck, I agree with that. But on the other hand if they're making people stop trading products that they'd otherwise have success at it's a sign of undercapitalization. Personally I think ICE ran the numbers and targeted their fees at those they knew who would pay. However, I do think they should really be considering a non-pro option.

Their delayed data is still cheap though.

 

[Handle123]

The data fees put newbs off. If you starting out with 10K account you don't want to be paying $1200 a year in fees, that's 12% of your account.
Less dumb money in any market = less easy money for good traders.

I dont mind paying $100 a month either, its not much relative to my account size, but what's to stop the greedy charging $200 or $500 or even a $1000 a month a few years from now. So im glad ICE have lost it, although CME could do the same thing. Cant rule that out, although for now they seem to understand that high retail data fees are not good for volumes.

For new traders, what they don't understand is they have to do 100% just to breakeven on commissions if they are paying 4 bucks for roundturn on $5700 account with 6 trades a day over 48 weeks. Then add the data, equipment, cable, electric, etc, the odds just pile up on being a new trader.