In the Coronavirus Fight in Scandinavia, Sweden Stands Apart

[wrbtrader]

1. I live in California.. our governor shut us down not the President.
.. repeatedly and was still threatening to shut us down again next week.

2. I was in favor of closing down the borders. Still am. Our governor is holding the cases that cross the border against us.

3. I don't know anyone who does not think washing your hands is a good idea.
I am very much in favor of distance... since I know that Covid spreads by droplets within a meter or 2 of the person spraying them.


=======
4. How is it that socially irresponsible people are causing the spread of Covid given these facts?


A. 30 million cases...
no evidence of asymptomatic spread... statistically speaking... its only spread by sick peeople with symptoms.

B. No evidence its airborne... no evidence of aerosol spread.
So... it goes by droplets which per the WHO fall to the ground if you keep about a meter apart.

C. No evidence masks alone prevent the spread.

Answer #4 - Info about Coroavirus was intentionally withheld early in the Pandemic...admitted such during an interview by the POTUS.

Also, ordering the re-opening of states that were not ready to re-open and that did not meet the CDC guidelines for re-opening (e.g. Georgia). To be more specific, the POTUS let the states decide about if they should re-open and then publicly criticize those that said they were not going to re-open...including threatening lawsuits.

• There was no national plan for the Pandemic. They had one from the prior administration but threw it out and tried (still are) to create a new one on the fly. Big Mistake.

More examples of socially irresponsible. Over sized parties, health code violations (over crowding in bars / restaurants), large gatherings in private homes and many other socially irresponsible events that became super spreader events. Then there's the situations of those that tested positive for Covid-19 but still decided to attend a social event instead of self-quarantine via staying at home for 14 days.

That's what is meant by socially irresponsible.

Answer #4a - There's evidence of asymptomatic spread. I've posted many links before but here's one again @ https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2020/08/10/asymptomatic

There's other links from 9 other different researches around the world that I've posted in the past. Some only a few months ago. Maybe more research groups today but haven't research it recently nor will I post any more links except the repeat above only because I know someone personally that was part of doing the above research.

Answer #4b - CDC posted evidence (draft) in September and then a few days later, removed that evidence with a statement it will be reposted at a later date with updated stats.

Many links about such but I won't post them. Yet, I'm sure you've heard about the post by the CDC and then their retraction for posting the wrong info. Until that info is reposted with any updates...best to assume that the CDC and other health organizations, scientists are correct about aerosol infection but there seems to be confusion among scientist when they used the phrase "primary mode of infection" versus "low viral load of infection".

Answer #4c - Here's the issue, there's research into the types of face masks being used and tested...most different types of face mask wear didn't work.

Those particular face masks allowed thru too many droplets whereas other face mask wear were much more effective to prevent breathing in aerosol particles. Simply, you need to know what types of face masks work and which ones do not work.

Another issue about face mask wear...many do not wear them properly. I've seen many people with their face mask around their neck, too big for their face with huge gaps on the sides, people pulling down their face mask to talk to each other and then when they finish talking...they pull the face mask back up...many other types of inappropriate wear of a face mask.

Also, there's a reason why many hospitals are stating face masks alone are not a guarantee. They needed "face shields" to go with the face mask to prevent infection in another common entry...the eyes especially when social distancing is not practical such as tending to a very sick patient.

This has been tested (transmission into the eyes) with other airborne diseases...it is a viable entry for infection. Although it's not a primary mode of infection entry but it is an entry.

There's a lot of research about this with other diseases posted online. I won't bother to repost links (I hate posting links) but you can find them on your own but I'll give you hints: Common Cold, Influenza, Chickenpox, Tuberculosis, Whopping Cough to name a few.

Covid-19 is new...don't exclusively rely on the scientist because the info is changing, corrected often because its a new disease.

Use common sense with your face mask just in case you're asymptomatic with no symptoms in which you can still infect someone else that does not have an immune system as strong as yours. This is the primary purpose for wearing a face mask.

Also, treat Covid-19 like any other Airborne diseases until they learn all the facts about Covid-19...its a new disease. Its very common for all the exact info to not be known in the first year of existence for a new disease.

Be safe than sorry instead of waiting for proper instructions from the CDC or WHO.

wrbtrader

 

[wrbtrader]

Well then explain yourself with logical statements supported by data.
How is locking down the low risk... saving lives.. if people get the virus when the country or state opens up... and allow travel, school and and some commerce to return.

as we can see from the data all over the world right now.... the virus comes back...

Spain, denmark, Canada, most of the big states in the US when they emerged from lockdown.

what was the point of locking down the low risk when you had hospital beds open?

The most important purpose of the Lockdown was to by extra time in protecting as many citizens / residents as possible until a vaccine was developed and / or FDA approved therapeutic treatments were developed.

A Lockdown has one critical element...the re-opening. If someplace isn't properly ready to re-open...don't re-open until ready. Many that did re-open in the U.S...were not ready but decided to re-open because of outside pressure from (e.g. White House) and they weren't economically able to absorb a lockdown beyond a several months.

In addition, it allows time to ensure hospitals become properly prepare with PPE and capacity issues when the re-opening occurs and then the 2nd wave hits.

Also, they needed to get the infection closer to the goal of R<1, they say, “a combination of case isolation, social distancing of the entire population and either household quarantine or school and university closure are required."

Some countries didn't need to do a full lockdown and only needed a Lockdown Lite such as South Korea, Sweden and others. These countries trusted their citizens / residents would be socially responsible and do what it takes to prevent a full lockdown...

Those government only used targeted restrictions at specific areas of the country when Covid-19 flareups happened.

The US could have easily followed a no mask, no lockdown of the low risk group like Sweden...

You already know the health care systems in the U.S. is different than the health care system in Sweden or any other Scandinavian country.

Also, a key aspect of the health care system is the social disparities. The social issues differences is not the same in both countries. Reason why social unrest is very different in both countries.

Another issue, Sweden is much better at contact tracking. U.S. is still struggling with that aspect.

The Swedish health care system is mainly government-funded, universal for all citizens and decentralized, although private health care also exists. The health care system in Sweden is financed primarily through taxes levied by county councils and municipalities.

With all the divisiveness in the political parties, social disparities and many other issues within the U.S...tough pill to swallow for the American people to switch to a government funded universal healthcare system for all citizens.

Now, if a Bernie Sanders like party were to win office for consecutive presidential terms...they may be able to get close to such but other political parties won't allow it.

The thought of trying to tear apart the existing healthcare system during a Pandemic and then switching to a Swedish like system...laughable.

wrbtrader

 

[jem]

1. Covid is not breaking out again because we are socially irresponsible we governmentally irresponsible. Because proper policy would have been seen as highly
discriminatory.

Ready to reopen... Is you first problem.
It implicitly this idea makes lefties think that if your reopening fails it because some of the population was irresponsible.

a. The govt shutdowns we executed were never going to extinguish the virus. They were designed to shift cases in time to protect hospital beds.


b. the data is showing now... that hard shutdowns are followed by hard virus rebounds.

As I said dozens of times during the shutdowns... they were stupid.
We should have isolated the high risk and let the low risk live their lives in unless hospitals bed shortages were looming in the local area.



There is one scenario which may have worked.
Very hard shutdown... no travel...
And then testing and tracing symptomatic people in clusters.
But... that would have led to charges of discrimination
because this virus destroys immigrant communities.

Part of the reason our govts did not distribute data and information is because
many of us would have been revolted by how stupid the shutdown policy is in light of the data.

We could have and should have executed far more localized policies.
But... again it would have seemed like middle aged and younger - middle income and up privilege.

4a. Asymptomatic spread. - none shown.

Your link only said that asymptomatics look like they could spread.

We have 33 have million cases worldwide and the argument is that
asymptomatic people have Covid in their noses when tested?
Of course they had Covid in their bodies that is how we know they were positive.

If you read the some of the articles on that study... you see the caveat
they don't know the Covid the asymptomatics have is infectious.

In short... still no real evidence of asymptomatic spread.
Read your article and you will see that.



4b. Still no evidence that Covid spreads via aerosol / infects via airborne transmission.

Yes the CDC tried to post unsupported crap about Covid being airborne / aerosol spread.
They were forced to take it down... because there has been no science proving that Covid spreads via aerosol. Remember back in June the who put out a circular and a officer made a speech saying no evidence or aerosol spread hence no reason for mask. She was forced to walk it back because people said there were pending studies or some indirect / conjecture.

Well now is millions of cases and almost 4 months later and nothing has changed.

No new evidence has been produced of aerosol transmission.
33 million cases and certainly know statistically valid evidence or airborne transmission.
If you have it produce it.

4c... given the above... there is no reason to wear a mask unless you are treating sick people....

but... I agree with you if I were treating symptomatics I would wear a shield, gloves and I would scrub afterwards.

Finally, once a mask gets dirty (probably within the first five minutes for a highly infectious person) the risk of that mask being touched or disposed of improperly because far greater than its potential benefits as long as you keep your distance.

In short...

Our governments are irresponsible for executing stupid policies which
were never designed to extinguish the virus. Its not the peoples
fault we are having breakouts. Its a virus... that is what a virus like this does
It infects 20 to 30 percent of the population and then it begins burn out
as you begin to get community immunity.
If you shutdown... you have to go through some of the infection process again when you reopen.

For proof... I point to the failed shutdowns we are seeing the world over.
The virus is spiking in some of our hardest shutdown areas.

So we never should have locked down the low risk outside of any area
which were not facing hospital bed shortages.

And no one has produced any statistically useful evidence
of asymptomatic spread or aerosol spread.... because there is none.

Answer #4 - Info about Coroavirus was intentionally withheld early in the Pandemic...admitted such during an interview by the POTUS.

Also, ordering the re-opening of states that were not ready to re-open and that did not meet the CDC guidelines for re-opening (e.g. Georgia). To be more specific, the POTUS let the states decide about if they should re-open and then publicly criticize those that said they were not going to re-open...including threatening lawsuits.

• There was no national plan for the Pandemic. They had one from the prior administration but threw it out and tried (still are) to create a new one on the fly. Big Mistake.

More examples of socially irresponsible. Over sized parties, health code violations (over crowding in bars / restaurants), large gatherings in private homes and many other socially irresponsible events that became super spreader events. Then there's the situations of those that tested positive for Covid-19 but still decided to attend a social event instead of self-quarantine via staying at home for 14 days.

That's what is meant by socially irresponsible.

Answer #4a - There's evidence of asymptomatic spread. I've posted many links before but here's one again @ https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2020/08/10/asymptomatic

There's other links from 9 other different researches around the world that I've posted in the past. Some only a few months ago. Maybe more research groups today but haven't research it recently nor will I post any more links except the repeat above only because I know someone personally that was part of doing the above research.

Answer #4b - CDC posted evidence (draft) in September and then a few days later, removed that evidence with a statement it will be reposted at a later date with updated stats.

Many links about such but I won't post them. Yet, I'm sure you've heard about the post by the CDC and then their retraction for posting the wrong info. Until that info is reposted with any updates...best to assume that the CDC and other health organizations, scientists are correct about aerosol infection but there seems to be confusion among scientist when they used the phrase "primary mode of infection" versus "low viral load of infection".

Answer #4c - Here's the issue, there's research into the types of face masks being used and tested...most different types of face mask wear didn't work.

Those particular face masks allowed thru too many droplets whereas other face mask wear were much more effective to prevent breathing in aerosol particles. Simply, you need to know what types of face masks work and which ones do not work.

Another issue about face mask wear...many do not wear them properly. I've seen many people with their face mask around their neck, too big for their face with huge gaps on the sides, people pulling down their face mask to talk to each other and then when they finish talking...they pull the face mask back up...many other types of inappropriate wear of a face mask.

Also, there's a reason why many hospitals are stating face masks alone are not a guarantee. They needed "face shields" to go with the face mask to prevent infection in another common entry...the eyes especially when social distancing is not practical such as tending to a very sick patient.

This has been tested (transmission into the eyes) with other airborne diseases...it is a viable entry for infection. Although it's not a primary mode of infection entry but it is an entry.

There's a lot of research about this with other diseases posted online. I won't bother to repost links (I hate posting links) but you can find them on your own but I'll give you hints: Common Cold, Influenza, Chickenpox, Tuberculosis, Whopping Cough to name a few.

Covid-19 is new...don't exclusively rely on the scientist because the info is changing, corrected often because its a new disease.

Use common sense with your face mask just in case you're asymptomatic with no symptoms in which you can still infect someone else that does not have an immune system as strong as yours. This is the primary purpose for wearing a face mask.

Also, treat Covid-19 like any other Airborne diseases until they learn all the facts about Covid-19...its a new disease. Its very common for all the exact info to not be known in the first year of existence for a new disease.

Be safe than sorry instead of waiting for proper instructions from the CDC or WHO.

wrbtrader

 

[wrbtrader]

.....

Finally, once a mask gets dirty (probably within the first five minutes for a highly infectious person) the risk of that mask being touched or disposed of improperly because far greater than its potential benefits as long as you keep your distance.

In short...

Our governments are irresponsible for executing stupid policies which
were never designed to extinguish the virus. Its not the peoples
fault we are having breakouts. Its a virus... that is what a virus like this does
It infects 20 to 30 percent of the population and then it begins burn out
as you begin to get community immunity.
If you shutdown... you have to go through some of the infection process again when you reopen.

For proof... I point to the failed shutdowns we are seeing the world over.
The virus is spiking in some of our hardest shutdown areas.

So we never should have locked down the low risk outside of any area
which were not facing hospital bed shortages.

And no one has produced any statistically useful evidence
of asymptomatic spread or aerosol spread.... because there is none.

To successfully battle a Pandemic...its two part...

• Government and Socially Responsible Citizens.

Both have to do a job and if one doesn't do its job...there's going to be a big problem as in high infections / high deaths.

It's really that simple. Nothing to debate about.

I'll give you an example of socially irresponsible people. During the Pandemic a bar is told they can only have no more than 50 people capacity. Instead, they allow in +200 people...shoulder to shoulder and many not wearing face masks...others wearing face masks...

Not even wearing a proper face mask.

It is the fault of the people if someone becomes infected or dies from that super spreader event. Socially Irresponsible.

No debates about a shutdown but only if the government knows they can not depend on its citizens / residents to do the right thing. The United States knew their citizens, overall, would not do its part...resulting in a strain on the healthcare system whereas a country like Sweden has more faith / trust in its citizen to do the right thing in helping to prevent the spread of Covid-19.

The Swedish people are rewarded with only a "lockdown lite" and a promise to use targeted restrictions in areas of flareups.

wrbtrader

 

[jem]

No... the lockdown was designed to shift infections in time to shift demand for hospitals beds and care.

Our lockdowns were not designed for the low risk group to stay locked down until a vaccine.

Your concept was illogical mission creep.
Its a virus... it comes back when you reopen.

I agree that the SARS papers told our health official that the way to be open/reopen is to test and trace for clusters and shutdown clusters fast.

Well guess what... look at the data by zip code in San Diego...

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/tracking-coronavirus-cases-san-diego-county

Had the state of California reopened properly.
We would have been locking down immigrant neighborhoods tracing their areas with apps. We probably would have said they can not leave their areas.

Would that have worked? Hell no... you all would have been screaming privilege and discrimination... and I probably would have agreed to some extent.
That idea would not work in our society... given the way this virus goes after multi generational households.

There would be even more rioting... (by the way I predicted rioting.... long before the riots here on et.)
You can't lock down people in tight living quarters as the spread the virus to each other fore very long.

-----

That is why I have always said the Swedes have the best model once they locked down their high risk..

You protect the high risk... and you let the low risk become immune or just deal with it since is not deadly to them.

The Swedes succeeded because its a flu for low risk people and now many of them are immune. They succeed independent of a health care system once they locked down the old folks homes.

The most important purpose of the Lockdown was to by extra time in protecting as many citizens / residents as possible until a vaccine was developed and / or FDA approved therapeutic treatments were developed.

A Lockdown has one critical element...the re-opening. If someplace isn't properly ready to re-open...don't re-open until ready. Many that did re-open in the U.S...were not ready but decided to re-open because of outside pressure from (e.g. White House) and they weren't economically able to absorb a lockdown beyond a several months.

In addition, it allows time to ensure hospitals become properly prepare with PPE and capacity issues when the re-opening occurs and then the 2nd wave hits.

Also, they needed to get the infection closer to the goal of R<1, they say, “a combination of case isolation, social distancing of the entire population and either household quarantine or school and university closure are required."

Some countries didn't need to do a full lockdown and only needed a Lockdown Lite such as South Korea, Sweden and others. These countries trusted their citizens / residents would be socially responsible and do what it takes to prevent a full lockdown...

Those government only used targeted restrictions at specific areas of the country when Covid-19 flareups happened.



You already know the health care systems in the U.S. is different than the health care system in Sweden or any other Scandinavian country.

Also, a key aspect of the health care system is the social disparities. The social issues differences is not the same in both countries. Reason why social unrest is very different in both countries.

Another issue, Sweden is much better at contact tracking. U.S. is still struggling with that aspect.



With all the divisiveness in the political parties, social disparities and many other issues within the U.S...tough pill to swallow for the American people to switch to a government funded universal healthcare system for all citizens.

Now, if a Bernie Sanders like party were to win office for consecutive presidential terms...they may be able to get close to such but other political parties won't allow it.

The thought of trying to tear apart the existing healthcare system during a Pandemic and then switching to a Swedish like system...laughable.

wrbtrader

 

[vanzandt]

4b. Still no evidence that Covid spreads via aerosol / infects via airborne transmission.

.

Gem,
How can you say that? There's tons and tons of evidence. But ok, lets say you're right. Then tell me, how does it spread, because it obviously f'ing spreads.

 

[jem]

Ok...
but its a ton easier to do the right thing... when the young and low risk are not locked up and not forced to wear masks.

Especially when its obvious virtue signaling bullshit... like bandanas being ok.

To successfully battle a Pandemic...its two part...

• Government and Socially Responsible Citizens.

Both have to do a job and if one doesn't do its job...there's going to be a big problem as in high infections / high deaths.

It's really that simple. Nothing to debate about.

I'll give you an example of socially irresponsible people. During the Pandemic a bar is told they can only have no more than 50 people capacity. Instead, they allow in +200 people...shoulder to shoulder and many not wearing face masks...others wearing face masks...

Not even wearing a proper face mask.

It is the fault of the people if someone becomes infected or dies from that super spreader event. Socially Irresponsible.

No debates about a shutdown but only if the government knows they can not depend on its citizens / residents to do the right thing. The United States knew their citizens, overall, would not do its part...resulting in a strain on the healthcare system whereas a country like Sweden has more faith / trust in its citizen to do the right thing in helping to prevent the spread of Covid-19.

The Swedish people are rewarded with only a "lockdown lite" and a promise to use targeted restrictions in areas of flareups.

wrbtrader

 

[jem]

Droplets... that fall to the ground or surfaces within a meter or 2.

That is why the meta studies showed distancing plus masks work for the public.
Its the distancing that works.

Indoors, you want to keep your distance and really wash your hands a lot.
Masks get dirty fast from a highly infectious person.
Now you are really fucked even though you are distancing.

As they touch surfaces and spread it all over surfaces instead of the floor.



2. If you have any real evidence not anecdotal concepts like the choir practice I see cited everywhere... give me a link I will read it.
I will adjust my views accordingly. More importantly I will tell the people I know who work in hospitals.

Gem,
How can you say that? There's tons and tons of evidence. But ok, lets say you're right. Then tell me, how does it spread, because it obviously f'ing spreads.

 

[wrbtrader]

...

That is why I have always said the Swedes have the best model once they locked down their high risk..

You protect the high risk... and you let the low risk become immune or just deal with it since is not deadly to them.

The Swedes succeeded because its a flu for low risk people and now many of them are immune. They succeed independent of a health care system once they locked down the old folks homes.

I think you got lost in your thoughts.

• Regardless, have you looked at the other countries that did not lockdown ?

• Why do you think the Covid-19 performance of those countries are so much better than Sweden ?

• Why not adopt the healthcare system in South Korea considering South Korea did not lockdown and has a much better Covid-19 performance than Sweden ?

Simply, the Swedes do not have the best model in comparison to the other countries that did not lockdown. Yet, if you're comparing Sweden to the United States considering I think you mention you're in the United States...

It's not a fair comparison because they have completely different health care systems and completely different government response to the Pandemic.

• Can the United States implement a healthcare system like Sweden ?

Yes, if the right government is in place and the people allows such but such can't be implemented on the fly in the middle of a Pandemic. To debate about such during a Pandemic is laughable especially when the concerns were never raised about such prior to a Pandemic.

wrbtrader

 

[gwb-trading]

Droplets... that fall to the ground or surfaces within a meter or 2.

That is why the meta studies showed distancing plus masks work for the public.
Its the distancing that works.

Indoors, you want to keep your distance and really wash your hands a lot.
Masks get dirty fast from a highly infectious person.
Now you are really fucked even though you are distancing.

As they touch surfaces and spread it all over surfaces instead of the floor.

So every other coronavirus on the face of the earth can spread via aerosol —- but COVID-19 is special and does not spread in the air. What complete inane bullshiat.