In the Coronavirus Fight in Scandinavia, Sweden Stands Apart

[jem]

oh look one of the go tos for anti truth covid propaganda... business insider.

How many fricken times do I have to tell you and your moron bullshit press releases... natural herd immunity comes in at much lower levels than vaccine immunity because viruses pick off the most susceptible and the ones with the largest networks first. Taking them out or making them immune.

I just don't understand why you keep presenting the same bullshit lies over and over?
Why are you so into lying?


We all know Sweden like NY, NJ, CT, France Spain and Belgium and Italy got hit hard early and lost a lot of elderly before they all locked down their old folks.

Your side keeps bring their early deaths up.... before they deployed their winning strategy.

 

[gwb-trading]

How many fricken times do I have to tell you and your moron bullshit press releases... natural herd immunity comes in at much lower levels than vaccine immunity because viruses pick off the most susceptible and the ones with the largest networks first. Taking them out or making them immune.

I just don't understand why you keep presenting the same bullshit lies over and over?
Why are you so into lying?

Your pushing of T-cell immunity and other nonsense has been proven to be complete bullshiat.

The very theory of "herd immunity" requires that 50% of a population achieve immunity to a highly infectious disease even to start slowing the spread based on the math & science behind "herd immunity". The actual level required for "herd immunity" to stop the spread is usually 70% or higher depending on the characteristics of the highly infectious disease.

All the papers showing and supporting this have previously been posted. You can go back and read them to educate yourself.

 

[gwb-trading]

Cases could rise as people go back to school, stay indoors and get less vitamin D.
Fortunately for them many in Stockholm now have immunity and natural immunity will control.

However they recently let their old folks out... so I expect some will die if they are tired of being locked down.

Which get to the next point... I told you a million times that the vast bulk of their deaths happened early before they lockded down old folks homes... similar to what happened in New York, Spain and France.

Tegnall told you that those deaths seem to have nothing to do with not locking down the low risk.

Which brings up the last point...
I must have told you 40 times on this thread they locked down the old folks homes...
so you are full of shit acting like I denied that they had some measure of lock down.
Even if you find some post where I said no lockdown... I said dozens of times their deaths happened before they old folks lock down.

Read the article. They locked down nursing homes in March in Sweden right at the time COVID appeared in the country. They are just ending their nursing home restrictions now. They locked down nursing homes longer than most European countries and still had dismal results.

The high death level in nursing homes is because Sweden allowed the virus to spread widely across society due to failing to follow the best public health practices which inevitably led to COVID getting into most nursing homes via delivery people, staff and others.

 

[jem]

And their peak deaths was March 30 and April 10th..
you remember saying deaths trail infections don't you?

Exactly what I have been telling you for months...
after they locked down their old folks homes the deaths went down steadily. Now they are at 1 Covid death a day
even though they did not wear masks and did not lock down their high risk group...


https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/



Sweden banned visitors at nursing homes in March. Since then, the facilities have gotten stricter about requiring social distancing and face masks. In recent months, the Swedish government also began working with care home sto make it easier for staff to report instances in which an elderly patient didn't get proper care or sufficient access to a doctor.

Read the article. They locked down nursing homes in March in Sweden right at the time COVID appeared in the country. They are just ending their nursing home restrictions now. They locked down nursing homes longer than most European countries and still had dismal results.

The high death level in nursing homes is because Sweden allowed the virus to spread widely across society due to failing to follow the best public health practices which inevitably led to COVID getting into most nursing homes via delivery people, staff and others.

 

[jem]

Well since you don't understand the papers and studies I presented.... how about the New York Times... talking to the authors? Now the article is a good read and give both sides...

but... I draw your attention to exactly what I have been saying....

its written between the Caveats...
I will break out my points for you..
you are welcome to highlight the counters...




https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/health/coronavirus-herd-immunity.html



“The question of what it means for the population as a whole, however, is much more fraught,” he added.

Herd immunity is calculated from the epidemic’s so-called reproductive number, R0, an indicator of how many people each infected person spreads the virus to.

The initial calculations for the herd immunity threshold assumed that each community member had the same susceptibility to the virus and mixed randomly with everyone else in the community

.....


Once such real-world variations in density and demographics are accounted for, the estimates for herd immunity fall. Some researchers even suggested the figure may be in the range of 10 to 20 percent, but they were in the minority.

Assuming the virus ferrets out the most outgoing and most susceptible in the first wave, immunity following a wave of infection is distributed more efficiently than with a vaccination campaign that seeks to protect everyone, said Tom Britton, a mathematician at Stockholm University.


....




But models like Dr. Britton’s hint that it’s not impossible. Other researchers have suggested, controversially, that herd immunity can be achieved at rates of immunity as low as 10 or 20 percent — and that entire countries may already have achieved that goal.

Criticism trailed Sunetra Gupta, a theoretical epidemiologist at Oxford University, after a widely circulated interview in which she said that London and New York may already have reached herd immunity because of variability among people, combined with a theoretical immunity to common cold coronaviruses that may protect against the new one.

“That could be the explanation for why you don’t see a resurgence in places like New York,” she said.

Your pushing of T-cell immunity and other nonsense has been proven to be complete bullshiat.

The very theory of "herd immunity" requires that 50% of a population achieve immunity to a highly infectious disease even to start slowing the spread based on the math & science behind "herd immunity". The actual level required for "herd immunity" to stop the spread is usually 70% or higher depending on the characteristics of the highly infectious disease.

All the papers showing and supporting this have previously been posted. You can go back and read them to educate yourself.

 

[Buy1Sell2]

Current numbers in Sweden----Excellent----Absolutely Excellent!

 

[wrbtrader]

...We all know Sweden like NY, NJ, CT, France Spain and Belgium and Italy got hit hard early and lost a lot of elderly before they all locked down their old folks...

A little off topic...Sweden was not the only country that did only a LockDown Lite (coined by Sweden).

There were other countries (e.g. South Korea, Tajikistan,Turkmenistan) that did the same but their Covid-19 performance / response has been the norm for the countries that did not do a Full Lockdown whereas Sweden's performance has been poor in comparison.

To be precise...Sweden has the worst performance of the countries that did not do a Full Lockdown.

Now back on topic.

It's not just about the elderly. Its about the young and other vulnerable population that have underlying medical conditions...about 1/3 do not know they have a medical condition that can be exploited by Covid-19...these individuals are not the elderly.

Yet, if you're not going to worry about those 1/3 (that's like 33%) of the population walking around that think they are healthy / young (not old) do not realize they may have a heart problem, borderline diabetes, elevated blood pressure, early stages of cancer and many other underlying medical conditions that have not yet been detected.

That's a lot of people for Covid-19 to murder that are not the elderly.

Getting back to the elderly, a large portion of the elderly live at home in multi-family dwellings. Thus, they are not in a nursing home nor long term care facility. Simply, they are living with people that will most likely just be asymptomatic.

Lastly, most countries can not model nor change their healthcare system to model that of the Scandinavian countires like Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland...the latter three are border neighbours of Sweden and performing better that closed their borders to Sweden but I believe have recently open their borders to "other countries".

It will be interesting to see if within the next month if Denmark, Norway and Finland will close their borders again to protect their elderly, ethnic minority communities and protect those with underlying medical conditions.

Sweden's big plus and underrated by individuals in the United States and United Kingdom...

Sweden has a larger population of socially responsible residents with less social disparities than the United States and United Kingdom. Simply, they U.S. and U.K. can not just change their healthcare system to model Sweden in the middle of a Pandemic...countries that have problems with social disparities.

wrbtrader

 

[Bugenhagen]

Gnus (Jem) being a fragile narcissist is biologically incapable of grasping any weight of compassion put on the decision scale. For him the practicalities of vulnerable mixed into society get not a second's thought. Magical thinking.

Its not the case of saying hey, lets do a Sweden but making the members of society behave like Swedes (with all the invisible discipline and co-operation), which Americans could not possibly do with so many induh-vidual arseholes.

BTW, you all know you are talking to a freak who when everyone was telling him to fuck off, came back as "gnus" and now, having given it some time for the soft brained right to forget, is trying his old nic again. Just saying. How we forgive the ones we have no expectations of anything from.

 

[jem]

that is funny... you foreign troll
you are the biggest narcissist the board has ever seen by a factor of 10.
I mean that in all sincerity.

Compassion is certainly not destroying a years worth of children's school lives when there are much more targeted alternatives.
See the Swedes showed true compassion for their younger school kids.
Once they protected the high risk they have been the most compassionate society.

I suggest you read Plato's Republic.
Just outcomes are the true mark of compassion.

All you are concerned about is virtue signaling and your alignment with the leftist press.

Gnus (Jem) being a fragile narcissist is biologically incapable of grasping any weight of compassion put on the decision scale. For him the practicalities of vulnerable mixed into society get not a second's thought. Magical thinking.

Its not the case of saying hey, lets do a Sweden but making the members of society behave like Swedes (with all the invisible discipline and co-operation), which Americans could not possibly do with so many induh-vidual arseholes.

BTW, you all know you are talking to a freak who when everyone was telling him to fuck off, came back as "gnus" and now, having given it some time for the soft brained right to forget, is trying his old nic again. Just saying. How we forgive the ones we have no expectations of anything from.

 

[jem]

1. You don't seem to know my argument - which I had made many times early in this thread.

I have always argued the proper and most responsible (and hence compassionate and just response) is to have the high risk be isolated and let the low risk live their lives.

That 1/3 of the people you are talking about would be classified as high risk and should be protected ( in my book.)


2. The bulk of Sweden's deaths happened very early, before countries had a response.
The germane "response", the one I promoted began after they locked down nursing homes.

Since then their results are remarkable.

Why you all don't just look at the charts and see for yourself boggles my mind...

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

3. The socially responsible argument is a bit odd... considering the socially responsible in the non high risk group... did not have to lock down and did not have to wear masks.

And, we have plenty of documentation of pictures of Stockholm all summer with people in restaurants and parks... all clustered without masks....
Of course that was when the media was scaring the world into thinking they were going to hundreds of thousands of deaths.

4. Your amorphous healthcare argument is flat out wrong on Covid.
a. They hardly tested people at all until their pandemic had crested for well over 60 days.

And....

b. You could argue Sweden's health care system was the reason for a great deal of their elderly deaths... like NY and NJ and CT... apparently they did not want to keep the Covid sick elderly isolated and treated in hospitals.
.

additional comments...

If you want to explain how and why other non shutdown countries did even better.... I will be happy to read.

Right now, I am done trading and on my way to the safest spot on earth....
the beach.

A little off topic...Sweden was not the only country that did only a LockDown Lite (coined by Sweden).

There were other countries (e.g. South Korea, Tajikistan,Turkmenistan) that did the same but their Covid-19 performance / response has been the norm for the countries that did not do a Full Lockdown whereas Sweden's performance has been poor in comparison.

To be precise...Sweden has the worst performance of the countries that did not do a Full Lockdown.

Now back on topic.

It's not just about the elderly. Its about the young and other vulnerable population that have underlying medical conditions...about 1/3 do not know they have a medical condition that can be exploited by Covid-19...these individuals are not the elderly.

Yet, if you're not going to worry about those 1/3 (that's like 33%) of the population walking around that think they are healthy / young (not old) do not realize they may have a heart problem, borderline diabetes, elevated blood pressure, early stages of cancer and many other underlying medical conditions that have not yet been detected.

That's a lot of people for Covid-19 to murder that are not the elderly.

Getting back to the elderly, a large portion of the elderly live at home in multi-family dwellings. Thus, they are not in a nursing home nor long term care facility. Simply, they are living with people that will most likely just be asymptomatic.

Lastly, most countries can not model nor change their healthcare system to model that of the Scandinavian countires like Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland...the latter three are border neighbours of Sweden and performing better that closed their borders to Sweden but I believe have recently open their borders to "other countries".

It will be interesting to see if within the next month if Denmark, Norway and Finland will close their borders again to protect their elderly, ethnic minority communities and protect those with underlying medical conditions.

Sweden's big plus and underrated by individuals in the United States and United Kingdom...

Sweden has a larger population of socially responsible residents with less social disparities than the United States and United Kingdom. Simply, they U.S. and U.K. can not just change their healthcare system to model Sweden in the middle of a Pandemic...countries that have problems with social disparities.

wrbtrader