In the Coronavirus Fight in Scandinavia, Sweden Stands Apart

[jem]

WTF... as I said you argue like Jello. You were dead asss wrong and now you are compounding the issue.

Herd immunity for the measles was first seen in the 1930s...

I guarantee that was long before anti vaxers (for measles) because the measles vaccine was created around 1963.

You were wrong. You made shit up... and google is the enemy of bullshiters because it takes only a few seconds to fact check you.

Provide an example of one major disease with a high infection rate that we wiped off the earth (effectively) without a vaccine.

Of course with measles when the vaccine rate drop due to the anti-vaxer idiots the disease breaks out again. Demonstrating even after many kids in a community get sick that vaccination is the only course to effective herd immunity --- as stated by the WHO when criticizing Sweden.

 

[RRY16]

WTF... as I said you argue like Jello. You were dead asss wrong and now you are compounding the issue.

Herd immunity for the measles was first seen in the 1930s...

I guarantee that was long before anti vaxxers (for measles) because the measles vaccine was created around 1963.

You were wrong. You made shit up... and google is the enemy of bullshiters because it takes only a few seconds to fact check you.

Thank God you’re not a Litigator.

 

[gwb-trading]

WTF... as I said you argue like Jello. You were dead asss wrong and now you are compounding the issue.

Herd immunity for the measles was first seen in the 1930s...

I guarantee that was long before anti vaxxers (for measles) because the measles vaccine was created around 1963.

You were wrong. You made shit up... and google is the enemy of bullshiters because it takes only a few seconds to fact check you.

Why don't you go read the paper you referenced regarding measles.

"Herd immunity was recognized as a naturally occurring phenomenon in the 1930s when it was observed that after a significant number of children had become immune to measles, the number of new infections temporarily decreased, including among susceptible children.[8]"

Reference 8
https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/189/Supplement_1/S17/821924

Oh wait it states that no herd immunity was obtained for measles across the U.S in the 1930s... and provides the 10 major lessons have been learned from elimination efforts.

Regarding the 1930s merely cites the following - "Sencer et al. [3] cited the 1930s report by Hedrich [4], which indicated that when a sufficient proportion of the population in Baltimore became immune (>53%), epidemics did not develop. This suggested a threshold level of immunity that would protect against a measles epidemic. Sencer et al. [3] recognized that the proportion of children to be immunized to achieve eradication would be higher than suggested by Hed-rich's data, but they believed that in the United States “the immune threshold (would be) considerably less than 100%” (p. 255)."

While failing to mention the terrible toll Baltimore paid in deaths and sickness from measles to reach this plateau. Scientists studied Baltimore in the 1930s since there was no other location near the number of deaths per capita from measles. Baltimore was the world's measles hotspot.

 

[jem]

1. You are so full of shit.. Just stop it.


When were are talking about herd immunity... we are talking about specific populations.
We are not talking about populations everywhere.

For instance right now... Stockholm may be on its way to herd immunity while it is acknowledged and expected the non urban areas in Sweden will take longer.

A significant portion of the population as compared to the R0 of the virus or disease has to develop antibodies for herd immunity to work. By the way... whether its because people already had the virus or because of a vaccine, its the same concept.

Why don't you go read the paper you referenced regarding measles.

"Herd immunity was recognized as a naturally occurring phenomenon in the 1930s when it was observed that after a significant number of children had become immune to measles, the number of new infections temporarily decreased, including among susceptible children.[8]"

Reference 8
https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/189/Supplement_1/S17/821924

Oh wait it states that no herd immunity was obtained for measles across the U.S in the 1930s... and provides the 10 major lessons have been learned from elimination efforts.

Regarding the 1930s merely cites the following - "Sencer et al. [3] cited the 1930s report by Hedrich [4], which indicated that when a sufficient proportion of the population in Baltimore became immune (>53%), epidemics did not develop. This suggested a threshold level of immunity that would protect against a measles epidemic. Sencer et al. [3] recognized that the proportion of children to be immunized to achieve eradication would be higher than suggested by Hed-rich's data, but they believed that in the United States “the immune threshold (would be) considerably less than 100%” (p. 255)."

While failing to mention the terrible toll Baltimore paid in deaths and sickness from measles to reach this plateau. Scientists studied Baltimore in the 1930s since there was no other location near the number of deaths per capita from measles. Baltimore was the world's measles hotspot.

 

[jem]

by the way...

Please link to the WHO saying the only course to effective herd immunity is vaccination.
I would like to see if there are any caveats or citations to studies I could access.

Because I read an article where the who said herd immunity is an open question for Covid since there have been no studies.

So are you completely full of shit again or do you have some science?

Provide an example of one major disease with a high infection rate that we wiped off the earth (effectively) without a vaccine.

Of course with measles when the vaccine rate drop due to the anti-vaxer idiots the disease breaks out again. Demonstrating even after many kids in a community get sick that vaccination is the only course to effective herd immunity --- as stated by the WHO when criticizing Sweden.

 

[Snarkhund]

He is a coward Jem. Straight up just a terrified pussy like the rest.

If your business is still closed today I'm going to boycott it forever. Pussies must be punished.

Businesses that reopen or stayed open will be rewarded. This is how it must work.

 

[gwb-trading]

1. You are so full of shit.. Just stop it.


When were are talking about herd immunity... we are talking about specific populations.
We are not talking about populations everywhere.

For instance right now... Stockholm may be on its way to herd immunity while it is acknowledged and expected the non urban areas in Sweden will take longer.

A significant portion of the population as compared to the R0 of the virus or disease has to develop antibodies for herd immunity to work. By the way... whether its because people already had the virus or because of a vaccine, its the same concept.

So let's take a look at the what the papers stated... when approximately 50% of the population was infected then the measles epidemic slowed down. This led to the hypothesis that there was threshold level of immunity that would protect against a measles epidemic but certainly had to be higher than 50% since the disease merely slowed and kept flaring up.

Sencer et al. [3] recognized that the proportion of children that need to be immunized to achieve eradication would be higher than 50%. About 50% was about the max that can be achieved naturally in a population without a vaccine. A vaccine is required to get herd immunity over 70% (or more) to be effective in a population.

This history is exactly what the papers spell out... along with how the concept of herd immunity was arrived at and the recognition from scientists that it could only be achieved with vaccination - not naturally by allowing people to be infected.

 

[gwb-trading]

For those who want a in-depth perspective on herd immunity including graphs you can alter with different characteristics... .here it is.

Without A Vaccine, Herd Immunity Won’t Save Us
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/without-a-vaccine-herd-immunity-wont-save-us/

If you read this article and fail to understand the following two points -- -then you are dense:

• Achieving herd immunity to COVID-19 in the U.S. naturally via infection would require millions of deaths.
• The characteristics of a disease make it unlikely that herd immunity levels can be reached without a vaccine... as outlined in the text.

 

[gwb-trading]

by the way...

Please link to the WHO saying the only course to effective herd immunity is vaccination.
I would like to see if there are any caveats or citations to studies I could access.

Because I read an article where the who said herd immunity is an open question for Covid since there have been no studies.

So are you completely full of shit again or do you have some science?

WHO calls herd immunity without vaccine ‘dangerous'
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/coronavirus/who-calls-herd-immunity-without-vaccine-dangerous

 

[jem]

Let's get this straight you lied about what the Who said. They did not say you can't get to effective herd immunity. Your Dr Ryan... doesn't like the fact some people have to die when there is a virus. But... people die from lockdown too. Which is why it is ending. We are following the Swedish model whether you like it or not. We just wasted a bunch of months.

So not lets critique the article a bit.
1.
"The WHO cited a number of serologic studies that are looking at the prevalence of the virus worldwide. While only one study has been fully peer reviewed, and a few others are in pre-review, the evidence is that few humans have attained antibodies leaving a still vulnerable population despite a worldwide death toll of nearly 300,000.

"A very low proportion of the people that have been tested have evidence of antibodies," Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, the WHO's technical lead for COVID-19, said. "The range is between 1 and 10%. It depends on the study. ""

Response... You can't make this propaganda up...

Of course we have only a small percentage of the population with antibodies...
we have been in lockdown.

2. He made a point about doing math about the death of old people
But... as I wrote above course does not do the calculation of how many deaths we are causing with the shutdown and all the other medical, mental and financial harm.

3. The WHO's Doctor Ryan in your article contradicts The WHO's Doctor Ryan ... himself...

Ryan noted that instead of lockdowns, the country has “put in place a very strong public policy around social distancing, around caring and protecting people in long-term care facilities.”

“What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate,” Ryan said. “In that sense, they have implemented public policy through that partnership with the population.”

He said the country also ramped up testing and had adequate capacity in hospitals to handle any outbreaks.

“I think if we are to reach a new normal, Sweden represents a model if we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns,” Ryan said.


https://nypost.com/2020/04/29/who-lauds-sweden-as-model-for-resisting-coronavirus-lockdown/

WHO calls herd immunity without vaccine ‘dangerous'
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/coronavirus/who-calls-herd-immunity-without-vaccine-dangerous