In Finding a Mentor

[wrbtrader]

Hi,

Could you expand on why you think it’s so important to be mentored in person?

That's why I posted those links...please read the info.

Would this not lead to you coping the mentors methodology rather than developing your own?

Also, as I stated in my prior message...

Quote from wrbtrader:

...My mentor did very little method sharing. In contrast, I was taught the aspect of trading itself which is something that can only be taught via in person mentoring.

Thus, you can't teach how to trade via online, weekend seminar nor can such be done in a few days or weeks in person in real trading conditions with real money. To teach how to trade will take several months at the least via in person.

In contrast, anyone can teach someone their trade method in a few sentences, paragraphs or a book. Thus, online is ok for such. Therefore, if you meet a mentor that only wants to give you his/her trade method...avoid that mentor if he/she insist it's mentoring because that's not mentoring. My point is that sharing methods is great...just don't call it mentoring.

Further, your explanation seems to be that a student dictates the learning process via wanting to copy a mentors method et cetera. A good mentor dictates the learning process...not the student. Regardless, online help can be done and its OK. However, it should only be used to supplement in person mentoring.

By the way, I've done an extensive survey about mentor/student relationship when I had a trading software egroup many years back. Summary - odds are much high a mentor/student relationship will fail via online in comparison to in person. In addition, students were more likely to hide their dirty baggage via online mentoring in comparison to in person. Best to get the baggage out in the open so that the mentor can get the student to resolve them before too much time & energy is wasted.

Thus, my opinion is strictly based upon my own personal experience as a student and via documentation of the experiences of others that had a good or bad student/mentor experience.

Mark

Quote from duhmentor:

Mark:

Could you expand on why you think it’s so important to be mentored in person?

Would this not lead to you coping the mentors methodology rather than developing your own?

A mentor should guide one to come up with their own system whether it be in person or online.

A mentors main value is in helping one overcome the emotions that go with trading. In my case, having to justify my actions to someone else was a great help.

In cases where you are thinking about deviating from your plan, if you are being mentored in person the decision is made by the mentor, therefore the responsibility for the outcome is on his shoulders. If you are being mentored via e-mail the responsibility is your own.

Realizing that we all learn differently, whatever works is the right method.

To quote RN “But what do I know?”

 

[duhmentor]

Mark:

I have read both posts. The first deals mainly with how to verify that the mentor is profitable and how to compensate him.

In the second I don’t see anything that couldn’t be done online.

Quote from wrbtrader:
My mentor did very little method sharing. In contrast, I was taught the aspect of trading itself which is something that can only be taught via in person
Mark

Which aspects of trading can only be taught in person?

Quote from wrbtrader:
Further, your explanation seems to be that a student dictates the learning process via wanting to copy a mentors method et cetera. A good mentor dictates the learning process...not the student. Regardless, online help can be done and its OK. However, it should only be used to supplement in person mentoring. ]

I was trying to say that the student is guided through the learning process. The mentor doesn’t explain why the market does whatever it does but asks the student how and why they reacted to what the market did.

By the way, I've done an extensive survey about mentor/student relationship when I had a trading software egroup many years back. Summary - odds are much high a mentor/student relationship will fail via online in comparison to in person. In addition, students were more likely to hide their dirty baggage via online mentoring in comparison to in person. Best to get the baggage out in the open so that the mentor can get the student to resolve them before too much time & energy is wasted.

I only have my own experience, so you are probably right.

As far as hiding dirty baggage the student is only hurting their self. Could be why so many fail, inability to control emotions and take responsibility for mistakes.

Thus, my opinion is strictly based upon my own personal experience as a student and via documentation of the experiences of others that had a good or bad student/mentor experience.

Likewise my opinion is only base on my personal experience

 

[Jeffp]

Quote from duhmentor:

Mark:

Could you expand on why you think it’s so important to be mentored in person?

I trade right along with my mentor on skype, and he lives down the block!

I'm at the point, where I can confidently call trades, give him the entry/stop and target.

There's loads of trades in the FX market; if there is a better trade, he'll say look at this pair and find the trade.

Two days ago, out of the blue, I skyped him up and called a 80 pip short on GBP for him. It was my trade and he took it.

It was a solid feeling, better than the $ on the trade.

Trading has become so basic...like sweeping the floor.

My advice.... find a mentor who knows people, trading and multiple markets.

A good teacher can relate on multiple levels to students who have different backgrounds, perspectives and personalities.

When its right ....there's a serious rapport that develops.... a professionalism where trading discipline is never violated.

 

[wrbtrader]

Quote from duhmentor:

...Which aspects of trading can only be taught in person?

I was trying to say that the student is guided through the learning process. The mentor doesn’t explain why the market does whatever it does but asks the student how and why they reacted to what the market did.

I only have my own experience, so you are probably right.

As far as hiding dirty baggage the student is only hurting their self. Could be why so many fail, inability to control emotions and take responsibility for mistakes.

Likewise my opinion is only base on my personal experience

Mentors are suppose to be educators or teachers or coaches...which ever analogy you prefer to use. Some aspects can be taught online which is why I stated such things can be used as a supplement (follow-up) to in person mentoring. This like any decent class...there's the book reading part (student responsibility) and then there's the application of what was taught/learned in the book. That application must be monitored by the mentor in person and it will tell the mentor if the student has read/understood the book.

Quote from wrbtrader:

Chemistry Class Analogy - You have the book part of the class and you have the laboratory part of the class. There's always an instructor or teaching assistants (known as TAs) to ensure the students apply correctly what was taught in the book along with ensuring nobody kills themselves. In addition, someone of experience needs to be there in person to prevent chaos when something goes wrong. By the way, I've never had a chemistry lab class where something did not go wrong.

That's why I mention in those links that there's a critical first step involved that must occurred prior to actual mentoring in person. The mentor must visit the student in the environment the student will be trading within to determine if the student has an adequate trading environment. For example of many things, to ensure equipment is setup properly. That's just one thing and you'll be surprise how many traders aren't properly setup to trade prior to the first trade.

The key is that it's a two way street. Students want to verify that mentors are legit and mentors want to verify that students are suitable to be mentor. That's the point of those prior links and using my recent chemistry analogy above...this ensures the student is eligible to take the chemistry class in the first place. For example, you can't take the laboratory class until you've read the book or you can't take Chemistry 201 unless you've pass Chemistry 101.

Quote from wrbtrader:

Most online mentors takes payment and don't give a damn about a student that's not ready to trade or not suitable for trading.

There's other aspects that can't be taught online or accomplish via online. Mentor is watching the student in person as the student prepares for the market. The mentor can make corrections or suggestion in the students market preparation as it occurs along with ensuring the student has made the corrections to be properly prepare prior to the first trade.

It's impossible to ensure something has been corrected via online and that's why students hire mentors in the first place or in most cases...to have someone enforce a habit that's suitable for trading prior to the appearance of any trade signals.

Quote from wrbtrader:

Boxing Analogy - You read a book on how to jab or read an online article on boxing techniques but you still need to get in a real ring with an training partner and practice that particular type of jab while a coach is standing nearby making corrections whenever he can see problems in the jab as it occurs. All of this is done many times, day after day, prior to real competition with someone that wants to knock you out if your jab is ineffective.

My point with the chemistry and boxing analogies is that someone is there to make corrections, recommendations, keep the focus and prevent major problems as it occurs. For example, I remember when I switch brokers in the middle of being mentored. The first day of using a new broker and new trading platform...my mentor sitting next to me told me to use the simulator for a few days until I've learned and gotten use to the new (different) trading platform. I responded via saying something like I've been profitable most trading days with real money since the mentoring started...I can handle a change in trading platform. My mentor responded by saying show me you can trade normally with a new platform but you'll do it via a simulator. Well...I didn't trade normally on the simulator and was clumsy in some trades as I was learning/adjusting to the new trading software. In fact, my trading results was poor on the simulator of a new trading platform versus my real money trading in prior days on the other trading platform. However, as soon as I felt comfortable with the new trading platform, I went back to real money trading and my profit level was simular to my profit level on the other trading platform.

That's something an online mentor could not have enforce me to do (use the simulator for a few days) after being cocky that it wouldn't be a problem in real money trading.

Here's another aspect of in person mentor that has an advantage over online mentoring. Mentor in person can stop the trading of a student that's on the verge of overtrading, having emotional or discpline problems, revenge trading et cetera. An online mentor cannot stop via the belief it's the student responsibility alone when a student is about to do such or has just started doing such which is a huge problem for newbie traders especially considering most newbie traders are not going to be honest with themselves nor with an online mentor about such until after the fact when the student see their own broker statements.

It's that process of stopping and showing a student problems as it is occuring by an in person mentor that will build that routine/habit within a student so that they have good experience on what to do when such occurs when the student is on their own without a mentor.

Mark

 

[duhmentor]

Mark I have to agree with all you have said. Teaching trading would be better in person.

This assumes that the mentors style of trading fits your personality.

In my case the market was the teacher, the mentor more of a sports psychologist.

I was never shown how to execute trades. What platform or what broker I was using was only discussed as to whether it suited my style of trading and whether it was cost effective.

I was constantly asked to justify why I was doing whatever it was I was doing. It took me a while to get over the usual problems encountered by most traders, like letting my losers run and cutting my winners short.

I experimented with several methods/styles until I found one that I was comfortable with. At the mentors suggestion I traded on sym and with small size to start with.

What I got from my online mentor, and finally got thru my thick head, was that the only thing I had control over was myself. Without that whatever else I might have been taught about execution, method, brokers, etc.(although it probably would have shortened the learning curve) would have been useless.

What worked for me was having to report my actions to someone else. Did I follow my plan? Why not? What are you going to do to stop that behavior?

Set a goal. Have a specific plan to accomplish it. Follow the damn plan.

 

[BSAM]

What nonsense. A real mentor can teach in person or over the net. Don't believe otherwise.

Is a poster on the internet more credible if he is "wordy" or is that merely what an eager newbie wants to believe?

If any of you are truly looking for a mentor, remember: Money talks and bullshit walks.

If you were looking for a mentor how much would you pay?

Lots of people on this thread need to cut the bullcorn.

 

[wrbtrader]

Quote from duhmentor:

Mark I have to agree with all you have said. Teaching trading would be better in person...

Yeah, if someone is going to learn how to trade with the help of a mentor instead of the self-taught route...do the in person mentor and my example of "switching trading platforms" is just one of many of why an in person mentor has an advantage over an online mentor. Everything else (e.g. teaching the rules of a trade method) or followups to the in person mentoring (learning how to trade)...that be done online.

Note: If someone can afford the self-taught route...go for it.

The key is that in person mentors can see or should be able to see typical trade problems that befalls most newbies or beginner traders as it is occurring in real-time and then make recommendations on correcting those problems including enforcing resolution. That's impossible for an online mentor to see and to do because most newbie traders aren't going to recognize there's a problem until hindsight or when they see their broker statement.

Mark