In defense of GM, Ford

With current financial sheets of the auto companies, I would have real real real problem paying anything more than $15/hour to any UAW worker who is merely tightening the nuts or driving a robot to correctly place the dashboard on the car.

I have seen heavy forklift operators not simple deals, these are behemoth machines with multiple gears and controls, very exotic.........these operators make $25-27/hour and that is sensible, given the amount of constant precision and judgement is required.

Weather UAW workers make $75/hour or $30/hour does not matter. It is the skill required that is up for evaluation.

Also like mentioned before, that cutting the sails off the UAW paycheck sailboats will be much more easy if the CEO and SVP checks do not fall into 20s and 30s of millions each single year.
 
Quote from Renegen:

Free market economics? You might want to study monopoly theory.

Unions act as a counter weight to a monopolistic company in the labor market. When it comes to low skilled labor, because of their great quantity, you can pay them LESS than they are worth by exploiting your position, it's all about negotiation.

There's no such thing as the free market, I don't know if you looked out the window but we live in a complex world.
Big 3? Yes, big 3, not big 50. That means if you don't like the low wage Ford or GM offers you, you better hope Chrysler will offer you a higher wage(not). Business will exploit their position of power, THAT is the rule of the market.

Unions only tilt back the balance of power to make it more fair for the worker. Workers don't compete against themselves for the lowest wage anymore and they can receive a FAIR wage. I say fair wage, because they know if they price themselves too high there would be no demand.

Overtime it's true unions might get too much power, and the systems needs to be rebalanced. And that is what bankruptcy protection does, it allows contracts to be renegociated, whether it's an strangling supplier or a union, they all know that if they abuse their power they won't earn a cent anymore.

Some of the people here are pathetic, if business ever goes too far then give them a second chance they were playing the capitalist system but if EVER unions go to far, take their rights away forever.

Please, do people even notice the double standards they adhere to? The media doesn't brainwash people just by saying lies, it also brainwashes people by omitting facts.

Again, if you are going to throw around terms like free market, learn the first thing about economics then.
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I know all about Economics. The Free Market kind.

Your post is a load of horseshit.

Your Socialist Concept of "Fairness" has already been addressed - its called minimum wage plus mandated benefits. Or go to school and get a better job!!

There's no reason why Auto-Makers should be forced to pay anymore than minimum wage, if thats what the Market will bear.

And even if the Big-3 had a Monopoly - which they don't - it makes no difference.

So the Company doesn't profit share with increased labor pay? So what? Get a good job, buy that stock, and collect that sweet dividend.

The Free Market isn't about paying what you feel you "ought" to make.

Most laborers work far harder, in shit-holes, for 1/10th what UAW's make!!!

Is that "fair"??!

Perhaps we should mandate a 30$ minimum wage for everyone, then?

Do you understand what would happen if your concept of "wage fairness" was applied fairly to everyone in the Country????!

Or, perhaps, you'd rather just keep that sort of "fairness" to yourself.:D
 
just curious about the stock prices of GM & F

whether they do or do not get a loan may have some short term impact on their share prices, but until they start turning themselves around i do not see significant gains in share prices

at some point they may fall below the listing requirements for the nyse....if this happens and they move to the pink sheets will this further impact the share price? is there any way around this other than a reverse split to keep them listed on the nyse?
 
Quote from Renegen:

Free market economics? You might want to study monopoly theory.

Unions act as a counter weight to a monopolistic company in the labor market. When it comes to low skilled labor, because of their great quantity, you can pay them LESS than they are worth by exploiting your position, it's all about negotiation.

There's no such thing as the free market, I don't know if you looked out the window but we live in a complex world.
Big 3? Yes, big 3, not big 50. That means if you don't like the low wage Ford or GM offers you, you better hope Chrysler will offer you a higher wage(not). Business will exploit their position of power, THAT is the rule of the market.
More...

I think what you're trying to say is that if the free market dictates you get low wages, it doesn't make it right that employers pay that. I agree with you on that. I deliver pizza right now. I use my car and pay all associated expenses. To my employer this is worth $4.50 an hour plus 86 cents per delivery for mileage. When I drive 8 miles on a delivery roundtrip and get stiffed, I make below minimum wage. Plus because the mileage barely covers the price of gas, I actually loose more money because I’m paying out of pocket for car expenses. The funny thing is, there are more than enough drivers. People come everyday to fill out applications because they have no job, or their current job is not enough. Is this everybody’s idea of a free market? The next thing you know they’ll tell me they’re not going to pay me anything, just work for your tips. And you know what, people would still show up to work.
 
Quote from achilles28:

I know all about Economics. The Free Market kind.

Your post is a load of horseshit.

Your Socialist Concept of "Fairness" has already been addressed - its called minimum wage plus mandated benefits. Or go to school and get a better job!!

There's no reason why Auto-Makers should be forced to pay anymore than minimum wage, if thats what the Market will bear.

And even if the Big-3 had a Monopoly - which they don't - it makes no difference.

So the Company doesn't profit share with increased labor pay? So what? Get a good job, buy that stock, and collect that sweet dividend.

The Free Market isn't about paying what you feel you "ought" to make.

Most laborers work far harder, in shit-holes, for 1/10th what UAW's make!!!

Is that "fair"??!

Perhaps we should mandate a 30$ minimum wage for everyone, then?

Do you understand what would happen if your concept of "wage fairness" was applied fairly to everyone in the Country????!

Or, perhaps, you'd rather just keep that sort of "fairness" to yourself.:D
More...
People like you really piss me off. You wonder why people vote Democrat. They work their ass off and at the end of the day they have nothing to show for it. It all goes to bills. Cost of living is always increasing, but wages never increase unless companies are forced to. They see the rich getting richer and they’re told by Bush, “ I know times are tough.”

So when people complain they don’t make enough money, they’re told they have to get an education. Around where I live that is 25k a year. Obviously they can’t pay for that, so they have to take out student loans. Since they’re in school, their $10 an hour job is obviously not paying their bills, so they have to hit up the credit cards. After 4 years of no sleep, they finally graduate with 125+k in debt. All of this gets you a nice 40k a year to start. Finally they start paying their debts a little bit, but then the credit card companies determine they are “in a higher risk class” and jack up their rates to 24%, even though they have perfect payment history. Now their entire minimum payment goes to interest and they’ll never be able to pay it off. Is this your idea of a free market?

Then people like you complain that Americans have too much debt. How are you supposed to pay for all of this when you’re making $10 an hour? How about a strict Cup O'Noodles diet? Or how about cancelling your health insurance and just hoping?

Why are people who support higher wages always called a socialist? This is about the 5th time I’ve seen this on ET. Let’s talk about fairness. Is it fair that banks are allowed to print money out of thin air? Is it fair that our government has an open door immigration policy that allows anybody to come here who is willing to work for less, which decreases demand for those already here who may have been getting a fair wage? Is it fair that the cost of living is always going up due to inflation that benefits the rich? Is it fair that companies get bailouts and I pay for it through inflation?

If America is a free country, then why is it so damn expensive to live here?
 
i doubt that volwswagen or BMW workers or guys at
daimler earn less or have less privileges than GM or F.

the US guys got it wrong for quite some time. i guess
it was the hybris of being the biggest for too long. they
even started to believe they invented the car ...

shrink. get back to hungry.

if i was obama i'd force them to get rid of their boards,
get new guys and make one of them merge with tesla
motors at very favorable terms for tesla. then they get
a big loan under the condition that in sep 2009 they
role out a full electric family vehicle at 40k ...
 
If I had a say in where my taxes went (ha, there's a novelty) this is what I'd do with the Big 3 if they want to spend money.

1) End the gravy train - ie get rid of those CEO clowns who showed up in Washington in their private jets to pitch for a bailout (when's the last time you went to your bank manager for a bridge loan without a business plan).
Sayanara also to all the yes-men on the boards who did not protect the shareholder but were primarily interested in feathering their own nests.
And yes, disband the union - or declaw them - at least temporarily. Wages in line with the competition.

2) Consolidate. The "Big 3" doesn't fool anyone.

3) Results driven management team. A Steve Jobs lookalike maybe.

3) Major investment in R & D

4) A rock solid guarantee that the vehicles that roll off the assembly line are worthy of purchase.

But first, get rid of the driftwood......
 
Quote from achilles28:

I know all about Economics. The Free Market kind.
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You are smart enough to realize that Free Market economics is a myth pushed forth by hardcore capitalists to get rid off government oversight and then go to town like the industrialists did in 1890s-1910. It does not exist.

Free market always turns into monopolies and oligarchies, because that is where capitalism pushes. You don't get to grow profits by promoting fair competition.

The closest anyone has ever gotten to this utopian free market idealism involved government regulation to watch out for "unfair" business practices. Not free market anymore.
 
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