In defense of GM, Ford
- Thread starter Mercor
- Start date
It absolutely ridiculous that these people make $73/hour (total package).
I am an engineer (mechanical/HVAC), and I know several union tradesmen. My father, who is a union electrician in Chicago, earns a total package of $65/hr.
However, he gets no paid time off (vacation/sick days/holidays), he gets laid off when a project gets completed unlike UAW workers, and he has to pay for many of his own tools. Plus, he's doing work that's much more challenging and required five years of school and apprenticeship training.
Despite all that, he still does very well. I haven't even mentioned that the cost of living is substantially lower in Detroit than it is in Chicago.
These people should be making around $50/hr (total package), which is closer to the prevailing wage of Detroit-area service technicians who work in the trades.
It's amazing to me that a wage like that was even brought to the table during negotiations.
I am an engineer (mechanical/HVAC), and I know several union tradesmen. My father, who is a union electrician in Chicago, earns a total package of $65/hr.
However, he gets no paid time off (vacation/sick days/holidays), he gets laid off when a project gets completed unlike UAW workers, and he has to pay for many of his own tools. Plus, he's doing work that's much more challenging and required five years of school and apprenticeship training.
Despite all that, he still does very well. I haven't even mentioned that the cost of living is substantially lower in Detroit than it is in Chicago.
These people should be making around $50/hr (total package), which is closer to the prevailing wage of Detroit-area service technicians who work in the trades.
It's amazing to me that a wage like that was even brought to the table during negotiations.
When the UAW can shut you down until you cave and then you get to pay back wages, you pony up. The union has more power to kill the automakers than the suits.
Unless you've been around these folks, you have no idea how loyal they are to the UAW. Union brothers and sisters aren't just words, not by a long shot.
Unions themselves are not the problem, its just the UAW..
There is still quite a bit of union jobs in the US but the only union you see running their companies into the grave is the UAW.
They have had it too good, for too long and there is just no more room to walk out on the plank.
You can give these guys 25, 50, 200 billion and its just buying them time before they go under. Lets just get it over with already.
Management is also to blame because they should have addressed all these issues 20 years ago but didnt and its simply too late in the game now.
'the only union you see running their companies into the grave is the UAW.'
absolutely disagree, studies have time and again proven that Unionized companies fall in the ROI by good 2% or more. private equity firms return more by 2-3% average because management has more say and power in the day to day ops and thus unions even if present are not able to rape the financial resources of the company. Public companies with their stockholder and related regulations are pretty much run like a socialist government organization and especially when compared to the private equity firms.
Pilot's Union in Airline industry was a major problem in 1990s with BA 747 and on captains making $300K a year and plane flies itself from gate to gate. Same held true for mechanics. When these bastard unions saw that Airlines will totally totally totally go bankrupt........only then they did relent and now senior Caps in 747s and beyond make $150K or so average which is ok and has helped airlines eek out profits when the oil prices were not so high.
absolutely disagree, studies have time and again proven that Unionized companies fall in the ROI by good 2% or more. private equity firms return more by 2-3% average because management has more say and power in the day to day ops and thus unions even if present are not able to rape the financial resources of the company. Public companies with their stockholder and related regulations are pretty much run like a socialist government organization and especially when compared to the private equity firms.
Pilot's Union in Airline industry was a major problem in 1990s with BA 747 and on captains making $300K a year and plane flies itself from gate to gate. Same held true for mechanics. When these bastard unions saw that Airlines will totally totally totally go bankrupt........only then they did relent and now senior Caps in 747s and beyond make $150K or so average which is ok and has helped airlines eek out profits when the oil prices were not so high.
everybody thinks the automaker are the devil... this is a joke there are a victims of the credit crisis. from greedy bastards that knew this problem exixted 3 years ago mainly the bank exces...
the banking execs knew the problem that was coming but they lined up their pocket with bonuses.. THEY ARE THE TRUE CRIMINALS HERE!!!
the banking execs knew the problem that was coming but they lined up their pocket with bonuses.. THEY ARE THE TRUE CRIMINALS HERE!!!
We're not talking about the Third-World Shit-Hole you call home.
We're talking about America.
In America (a decidedly First World Country), there's such a thing as Labor Laws, Environmental Protection Laws, Bankruptcy Laws and Consumer Safety Laws, that go above and beyond to protect the "Little Guy".
In fact, those Laws evolved from and represent the codified extension of Union Agreements bargained with Management, a century+ ago.
Unions were designed to fill the Legal Void when there was no legislative protection for worker safety, compensation, hours, termination, severance, pension etc.
All that has been replaced by LAW.
Therefore, Unions are obsolete. In fact, 90% of Unions do nothing but suck off the Public, with excessive benefits and pensions whose cost is ultimately footed by the Consumer.
You are correct in your observations. However, one thing the Union does do is make sure the corporations are actually obeying those laws. Many companies violate labor laws on a daily basis.
Yes, I agree Unions have grossly over played their hand in many cases, and have done so for quite some time. I've seen this from both ends. Many years ago I was a Grievance Man for a Union. I have also worked from the management side. I've been in non-union companies that have great benefits and working conditions. I've been in union shops that are shit holes. Bottom line, unions have their place, but the UAW in particular needs to come to grips with the realities of the 21st century. If they don't they'll be doing a great dis-service to their membership.