lol. thats funny. better prices between the NBBO (Is Mary Shapiro reading this? Will she discuss it tomorrow at their "Big Meeting" on Capitol Hill?). Do half the people reading this even know what that means? You have a better shot at better pricing on the NYSE (yes, for a small fee, maybe .001 at most), than you get with sub-pennying and flash trading from GS's prop desk in their dark pool. I should probably do a writeup on Zerohedge.. but all the good characters from Fight Club are taken. Read the NYSE memo 08-57 on the Next Generation Model, and instead of slashing your rates, you'll be jettisoning from the tentacles of the giant squid
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Important, all traders read, "issues"
- Thread starter Don Bright
- Start date
lol. thats funny. better prices between the NBBO (Is Mary Shapiro reading this? Will she discuss it tomorrow at their "Big Meeting" on Capitol Hill?). Do half the people reading this even know what that means? You have a better shot at better pricing on the NYSE (yes, for a small fee, maybe .001 at most), than you get with sub-pennying and flash trading from GS's prop desk in their dark pool. I should probably do a writeup on Zerohedge.. but all the good characters from Fight Club are taken. Read the NYSE memo 08-57 on the Next Generation Model, and instead of slashing your rates, you'll be jettisoning from the tentacles of the giant squid
Perfect Timing. lol
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/goldman-admits-frontrunning-clients-through-its-prop-desk
The topic of Goldman frontrunning clients using its prop desk, which has long bothered Zero Hedge, and which in the past received Goldman's vehement refutation, seems to have resurfaced, and to have proven our initial speculations correct. Jane Lattin, assistant to Thomas Mazarakis, head of fundamental strategies, sent out an email to clients earlier, notifying them that the firm in the past has traded ahead of them in its Fundamental Strategies Group, aka its Prop Trading desk, which is, by definition, frontrunning: "The Fundamental Strategies Group is a group of cross-capital structure desk analysts employed by our Securities Divisions to assist our traders. They develop Trading Ideas in conjunction with traders. We may trade, and may have existing positions, based on Trading Ideas before we have discussed those Trading Ideas with you. We may continue to act on Trading Ideas, and may trade out of any position, based on Trading Ideas, at any time after we have discussed them with you. We will also discuss Trading Ideas with other clients, both before and after we have discussed them with you." This answers our repeated queries from July as to whether Goldman is legally front-running its clients for its own prop positions.
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/goldman-admits-frontrunning-clients-through-its-prop-desk
The topic of Goldman frontrunning clients using its prop desk, which has long bothered Zero Hedge, and which in the past received Goldman's vehement refutation, seems to have resurfaced, and to have proven our initial speculations correct. Jane Lattin, assistant to Thomas Mazarakis, head of fundamental strategies, sent out an email to clients earlier, notifying them that the firm in the past has traded ahead of them in its Fundamental Strategies Group, aka its Prop Trading desk, which is, by definition, frontrunning: "The Fundamental Strategies Group is a group of cross-capital structure desk analysts employed by our Securities Divisions to assist our traders. They develop Trading Ideas in conjunction with traders. We may trade, and may have existing positions, based on Trading Ideas before we have discussed those Trading Ideas with you. We may continue to act on Trading Ideas, and may trade out of any position, based on Trading Ideas, at any time after we have discussed them with you. We will also discuss Trading Ideas with other clients, both before and after we have discussed them with you." This answers our repeated queries from July as to whether Goldman is legally front-running its clients for its own prop positions.
You might enjoy this artilce from a decade ago...talk about front running.
http://www.stocktrading.com/wsjknight1.shtml
I am adamantly against any type of front running, as we all should be. The $billion fine the Nasdaq paid in the 1990s was going to stop it at their end, yeah right.
I am aware of executing brokers, whether retail or bank types, routing orders through their systems prior to execution. I am also aware that even top Firms can run that risk...no argument here. I even show flow charts during training detailing this activity... we are simply doing our best to help our traders find the best methods of execution at fair prices. The NMS "helps" - but even that leaves room for improvement.
All the best,
Don
http://www.stocktrading.com/wsjknight1.shtml
I am adamantly against any type of front running, as we all should be. The $billion fine the Nasdaq paid in the 1990s was going to stop it at their end, yeah right.
I am aware of executing brokers, whether retail or bank types, routing orders through their systems prior to execution. I am also aware that even top Firms can run that risk...no argument here. I even show flow charts during training detailing this activity... we are simply doing our best to help our traders find the best methods of execution at fair prices. The NMS "helps" - but even that leaves room for improvement.
All the best,
Don
Quote from Don Bright:
we are simply doing our best to help our traders find the best methods of execution at fair prices. The NMS "helps" - but even that leaves room for improvement.
All the best,
Don [/B]
So paying less than a 1/10 of a penny (0.001) , isn't a "fair price" for receiving priority order status at at NBBO on almost every trade?
Quote from Moc Yeah:
So paying less than a 1/10 of a penny (0.001) , isn't a "fair price" for receiving priority order status at at NBBO on almost every trade?
I would seriously like to discuss that with you. I'm seriously curious as to the actual methodology of the practice you reference (in a positive way).
Would you mind chatting for a minute, we might be able to help one another with routing concepts....or at least clarify, LOL.
(You can keep your privacy, just say ET poster)..
Don 702.739.1393
Quote from Don Bright:
I would seriously like to discuss that with you. I'm seriously curious as to the actual methodology of the practice you reference (in a positive way).
Would you mind chatting for a minute, we might be able to help one another with routing concepts....or at least clarify, LOL.
(You can keep your privacy, just say ET poster)..
Don 702.739.1393
check you pm.
Quote from ASusilovic:
You are runing "index arb" with
a) single digit
2) double digit
3) triple digit
million USD AUM at a "prop-like" firm ? Successfully ?
Aha.
index-arb is a subset of stat-arb. i mentioned index arb as an example of a hft strat to someone who it was obvious didn't know what hft was.
i run a lot of stat-arb that looks very close to traditional index-arb. i'm sized into the mid-double digits and have access to three if i can ever get past the liquidity humps. besides a hedge fund or bank, where else are you going to run that size of stat-arb book besides a prop-desk? and what would be the point of doing it if you weren't making money? since you phrased things ala-'the rhetorical smartass', maybe you could explain to us how it's not possible.
US stock markets should be designed the same way as the US futures markets, which are fair, efficient, and have a level playing field for all.
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
US stock markets should be designed the same way as the US futures markets, which are fair, efficient, and have a level playing field for all.
(Comment only). Keep in mind that there would be no futures markets (Financial, spoos, emini's etc.) if there were not viable equity markets.
And, since firms get orders for equities during the closed NYSE markets, and they can run to futures nearly 24 hours per day, the futures run the risk of not being as "fair" as you might think.
However, I agree with your basic premise of (almost) a zero sum game.
Don
The fragmentation and idiosyncratic rules in equities are meat and drink to prop shops, locals and the entire ecology of people feeding at the trough of opacity and unnecessary messiness.
The messiness is mostly inherited from the days of open outcry, but there is no reason why trading in a stock shouldn't follow Globex - First In First Out queueing with Price, then Time priority in a single centralized queuing system.
The large slow moving buffalo masses of private client brokers, mutual funds, DIY investors and hobby traders are the ones feeding the whooping indian braves of prop traders, high frequency shops and the like. With such a vested interest in feeding off a brainless herd that doesn't even know or care much that it is being fleeced, I don't see this system changing.
In the futures world, it's mostly cold eyed bank traders who watch their costs like a hawk and won't stand for being ripped off. That's what keeps the Globex system cheap and honestly run.
The messiness is mostly inherited from the days of open outcry, but there is no reason why trading in a stock shouldn't follow Globex - First In First Out queueing with Price, then Time priority in a single centralized queuing system.
The large slow moving buffalo masses of private client brokers, mutual funds, DIY investors and hobby traders are the ones feeding the whooping indian braves of prop traders, high frequency shops and the like. With such a vested interest in feeding off a brainless herd that doesn't even know or care much that it is being fleeced, I don't see this system changing.
In the futures world, it's mostly cold eyed bank traders who watch their costs like a hawk and won't stand for being ripped off. That's what keeps the Globex system cheap and honestly run.