To a man that doesn't care, no moral system is going to matter, objective, subjective, or anything else. It is a fundamental question to the philosophy of ethics.
If nothing will satisfy him, why is this then only a problem for objective moral positions? The same question would be posed to your subjective morals, that is, 'Why should I do what your subjective morals tell me to do?' By your own admission, he doesn't care about either, so both objective and subjective moral systems suffer from the same inability to satisfy this sort of person. In this case, this hardly gives subjective morality any advantage over objective morality
Exactly right. I raised this point because you keep repeating this ad nauseum question "Well, why should someone do that?" every time I state what reasons a person has to hold their subjective values. You question me as if this is some grand point. The fact is that this is a fundamental question of all ethics and cannot be answered with any degree of certainty by anyone. So objective values are in no greater position than subjective values on this point. Your repetition of the question "Why hold those values?" is merely an attempt to indict subjective values on an issue which objective values fairs no better. Hereafter, when you play the christian "Why? why? why?" game and ask me over and over "Why hold those values?", I will simply remind you that you agree with me, that there is no ultimate, rational answer, to why. To a person who simply doesn't care, no system of values will matter.
Now if there is a person who cares about morality at all, only then is your question pertinent. If such a person is wondering why he should do what Christian objective morals tell him to do, I would say that he should because objective Christian morals are based upon the revealed word of God who, by virtue of his being our creator and by virtue of his omniscience, is in the best position to tell us what is best for us and what would be most beneficial to us.
And after all these posts we finally get to what is the basis of christian objective morality - "Might makes right." God is bigger than us, god is stronger than us, god is smarter than us, god created us, god can kill us any time he wants, God can send us to hell for disobeying him, and so this magically gives him the right to set the rules for our lives, suddenly we are all just "humanoid action figures" for the narcissistic, child-like god to play with in his cosmic sandbox. If you wish to turn your life over to an invisible being based on the fact that he is "bigger" than us, good luck. Your morality, is, when the curtain is raised, nothing more than a system of coercion. There is nothing moral about that.
Thanks, but no thanks, God. I for one will not surrender the one life I have so easily. I have said before, and I will say it again, christianity devalues human life. As an individual, I will decide for myself what is right or wrong, based on my well being and the well being of those around me. In the end, it is my life that is on the line, so I'll make the decisions. The basic reason why you and other christians will not accept the reasons I have given for making the subjective evaluations I do is that, when it comes down to it, you don't value human life itself. Christianity corrupts human nature. Christianity is anti-human and anti-life. It assumes control be devaluing humanity. We are all nothing, we are worthless, we are dumb, we are shameful sinners, unable to live our lives, unable to know right from wrong, without the "great monster-god" telling us what to do. This is the true basis of christianity. In your mind the fundamental values of life, a desire to live, a desire to be happy, a desire to be free, are worthless and meaningless. In the christian's mind, unbelievably, the fact that we don't like being killed, that fact that killing causes horrible suffering, the horrifying screams, the blood, the loss of life itself, the dreams left unrealized, the mourning of those left, is, in itself, not a good enough reasons for us to state that "Killing is wrong." According to christians, this doesn't matter. The suffering of a child means nothing to christians. If I state that I believe child abuse is wrong because I see child abuse and it turns my stomach, to christians, this is meaningless, it is invalid. You tell them child abuse is sickening and they ask "Why?" In fact, to christians there is actually nothing wrong with child abuse. It is only wrong because god says it is wrong. And that is the basis of christian values - that we are all basically worthless, our desires, our dreams, our safety, our very lives, all mean nothing. This is what they call "values." This is the highground from which they moralize to the rest of us. It's an absolute fraud.
Here is the point, iowan, where you ask me again - "Why LP? On what basis do you say that christianity is anti-life? Why hold those values? Why? why? why? why? why? why?"
Here is the final answer - If your christian beliefs have so corrupted you that you no longer have a basic human response to the suffering of those around you, then for you, there is no reason. If christianity has so destroyed whatever natural compassion you may have had, then for you, there is no reason. If you have been convinced by the preachers that we are all worthless unless there is an invisible being running our lives, then for you, there is no reason.
Here is the final answer - Because we are living human beings. Because it matters TO US, and that in itself, is enough of a reason. That is why.
The fact is that you and other christians can't think of a reason to not murder, to not steal, to not abuse children, to not rape, unless god orders you: and then christians have the nerve to tell me that I have no basis for morality?? It's a joke. When one then considers all the murderous mayhem caused by christianity over the last 2000 years, and the way you are here defending this travesty in the name of love and goodness, it becomes a tragic comedy. Unfortunately, I, and many others, are not laughing. Next time you "talk" to your christian god, do me a favor, tell him to keep his "morality" to himself, those of us who actually value human life are trying to build a better world and we don't need the kind of "help" he is giving.
and through the following 4000 or so years when "hell" did not exist, is not a contradiction to you? No such guy as Satan? What is the truth here? Was the Old Testament all meaningless? Or only the parts that do not exactly fit with the New Testament? Or your particular brand of Christianity? Hell is real; the fact that it did not exist in the Old Testament renders the Old Testament meaningless. But the Tree of Knowledge story is real. So then the Old Testament can't be meaningless! Wait, it is all way too confusing to me. Why don't you just make a concise list for me so I know what to believe. And what not to believe?
rs7