If you had to choose between the death penalty, and life in prison...

[Ricter]

Quote from Pabst:

I find you one of the more interesting people on this site. If you had to break it down, what % of the inmates you've encountered are just "bad seeds" as opposed to those who've made mistakes based on circumstance?

Pardon the ramble and edits that follow.

"Bad seed" is really a spectrum, and almost without exception relates to the degree of psychopathy present. The more problematic inmates are very often the higher scorers on standard psychopathy tests.

But of course psychopathy is a kind of circumstance, is it not? Nevertheless there are a "confounding" few who appear to have no real barrier to working for a living, but they'd rather just assault you. Guys that break in and steal your valuables, but before they leave they slash all your furniture.

At any rate, people, like all animals, tend to take the path of least resistance in obtaining their resources. If working is more difficult than stealing, which with an the absence of morals it certainly is, they will steal. This explains in part, imho, why the average IQ of the prison population is around 80. They do not have what it takes to succeed, on average you understand, in our society, and they never will. And sadly, where hunting, fishing, and farming once employed them by the millions, those jobs are largely gone.

If I understand your question in a practical, man in the street kinda way though, I'd say it's about 1 in 200. Free will is mostly myth I've come to believe. It feels like we have it, and for reasons of expediency we have to assume we have it, but circumstance is king, maybe not trump, but king.

People who have succeeded in spite of circumstance have had a seed planted, and at the right time. Oh, I mustn't forget the role of luck. Big one.

 

[Ricter]

Quote from Rearden Metal:

Didn't you find it difficult to keep your spirits up in such a bad karma environment? I hadn't suffered from depression at all until my three years out in the shit. Ten years later, and I'm still fighting to suppress it.

I suppose there are some factors which would have made your prison work a lot more comfortable than mine:

1) You got to go HOME after work.
2) I was paid $100/month, and wasn't allowed to quit.
3) You're probably more of a 'tough guy' than I am.

Yes, it was tough keeping my spirits up, but only after I reached the burnout period. Before that it was a hoot, all the action. : )

1) Yep, clearly uplifting. I feel for you, honestly.
2) Unimaginable.
3) Given 1 and 2 above, I doubt it. It's far easier to destroy than it is to create. If you're holding yourself up in spite of those circumstances, you're tougher than I've needed to be. Fighting others is easy. Fighting yourself, well...

 

[Madison]

Quote from Ricter:

At any rate, people, like all animals, tend to take the path of least resistance in obtaining their resources. If working is more difficult than stealing, which with an the absence of morals it certainly is, they will steal. This explains in part, imho, why the average IQ of the prison population is around 80. They do not have what it takes to succeed, on average you understand, in our society, and they never will. And sadly, where hunting, fishing, and farming once employed them by the millions, those jobs are largely gone.

excellent post, astute and thought-provoking.

 

[Pabst]

Personally Madison, I like THIS part of Ricter's post. Now here's a perfect example of someone who I NEVER agree with. Yet, this is not only one of the COOLEST thoughts ever expressed on ET, but one of the best philosophical treatises I've read anywhere.

I'm very much a conservative. Yet anyone, particularly in this business, should be cognizant of circumstance, luck, by the grace of God ect. Springsteen's my favorite performer, ANOTHER guy I disagree with politically. But he also mentions how life produces winners and losers and yet we only look out for the winners. Losers fall between the cracks. Alone. Desperate, deprived, drugged and dangerous. Few people who are successful are willing to admit that they won the lottery. I didn't think much of Taleb's Fooled By Randomness when I first read it. But Like Ricter he's touched upon a field of study that has profound ramifications on the reward system of society.

Quote from Ricter:

Free will is mostly myth I've come to believe. It feels like we have it, and for reasons of expediency we have to assume we have it, but circumstance is king, maybe not trump, but king.

People who have succeeded in spite of circumstance have had a seed planted, and at the right time. Oh, I mustn't forget the role of luck. Big one.

 

[Moreagr]

Quote from Pabst:

I'm amused when anti-capital punishment advocates utter platitudes like, "give them life without parole. It's far worse than death." If that's true, then why do death row inmates, many of whom have spent almost two decades awaiting the needle, use every appeal and legal device known to man, in order to avoid death?

Unless one is suicidal, NO ONE, really wants to die. I see the same thing in old people. I had a grandmother die at 94 a couple of years back. Every now and then she'd say:"I've had a long life, I'm ready to die. I'm so old and feeble, I WANT to die." The next day she'd be begging for a doctors visit to cure the slightest malady. She did EVERYTHING to prolong her life, even when life was nothing more than lying in bed. Yes, those who are terminally ill and in GREAT PAIN, will seek suicide. But 99.9% of the population has no interest in signing their own death warrant.

hey Pabst maybe their scared shiitless to die because they know exactly where they will end up. HELL perhaps.. everthink about that??

 

[spect8or]

Quote from Ricter:


At any rate, people, like all animals, tend to take the path of least resistance in obtaining their resources. If working is more difficult than stealing, which with an the absence of morals it certainly is, they will steal. This explains in part, imho, why the average IQ of the prison population is around 80. They do not have what it takes to succeed, on average you understand, in our society, and they never will. And sadly, where hunting, fishing, and farming once employed them by the millions, those jobs are largely gone.

I don't get you, Ricter. If you understand the above, then why do you flinch from the obvious conclusion, and instead rave on about "racism"?

If prisoners are there because of who they are, essentially, because the the genetic upper limit of their abilities doesn't offer them any hope of satisfying or uplifiting work, then isn't it pointless to try and "uplift" them by spending countless millions on programs that are doomed to failure before they even start? If, as I dare say most people would agree, the better jobs tend to require an IQ of at least 100, and if only 15% of American blacks score above this level (which is true), then wouldn't it be wiser to encourage and instill feelings of self-satisfaction in doing any level of work, rather than expect them all to become college graduates and captains of industry at geometrically precisely the same rate as whites? Or to waste time and people's nerves berating white society for "holding down" blacks, when it's obvious that it has very little to do with it? Or what about this old-school idea, preaching morality, so that even when circumstances appear desparate, their personal integrity will not allow their despair to lead them to a life of crime?


And lastly, flame me all you like, but I think you and Rearden are pussies! Honestly, I feel I could handle scum ass prisoner types all day and not get depressed about it. I spent years hanging out with such people, and it was only by a stroke of fortune that I avoided becoming one of them myself. I have precious little sympathy for them and never ever buy into their sob stories. In my view, they had the opportunity to choose differently at multiple points in their lives, but at each stage they made the choice that led them further to the pit they now inhabit. Ricter wasn't there, the way I was, to hear their justifications for what they planned to do. I will never buy this "they had no choice" line. Bullshit. They knew what they were going to do was wrong, but they did it anyway. Now they have to pay. Simple.

 

[ElCubano]

as long as my son is alive .. I aint going down like that...

 

[Rearden Metal]

Who said I was depressed out of pity for the prisoners???

First of all, let me clarify a few things:

I was concripted into the Israeli army, and served as an MP babysitting captured terrorists and other assorted enemies of Israel.

One of my main points of misery wasn't cruel treatment of the prisoners, but <b>the exact opposite!</b> Always fearful of what the 'international community' might say, captured terrorists were treated with kid gloves, and were free to insult the soldiers as they pleased. We were <b>never</b> allowed to properly discipline them to keep them in line.

Didn't you read this story? Or this one?

As you know, certain nations are the victims of a blatant human rights double-standard. Hundreds of countries do a million times worse than the U.S. at Abu-Gharib, yet those abuses never make the front pages.

It's not like I desire to inflict pain on anyone, but verbally abusive prisoners need to be kept in line- which we were strictly forbidden to do. You can guess the inevitable result of this policy, which made my work all that much harder. Am I still a 'pussy'?

Quote from spect8or:


And lastly, flame me all you like, but I think you and Rearden are pussies! Honestly, I feel I could handle scum ass prisoner types all day and not get depressed about it. I spent years hanging out with such people, and it was only by a stroke of fortune that I avoided becoming one of them myself. I have precious little sympathy for them and never ever buy into their sob stories. In my view, they had the opportunity to choose differently at multiple points in their lives, but at each stage they made the choice that led them further to the pit they now inhabit. Ricter wasn't there, the way I was, to hear their justifications for what they planned to do. I will never buy this "they had no choice" line. Bullshit. They knew what they were going to do was wrong, but they did it anyway. Now they have to pay. Simple. [/B]

 

[spect8or]

Quote from Rearden Metal:

Who said I was depressed out of pity for the prisoners???

Fair enough. If you go back and read the flow of the thread, with Ricter talking about solitary confinement, it just sort of sounds that way.

Am I still a 'pussy'?

No. Sorry bro. (But keep your hair on, I did put a in there to soften the blow.)

 

[maxpi]

Life in SuperMax but with a laptop and a WIFI connection, I would trade every market on the planet and pay off the Warden, have him send in my wife all the time. After I got to know the Warden really well, and had paid for his kids education, and their kids, I would request a leave of absence.