If trend following, can money management save you in chop?

Quote from intradaybill:

You people stop please using "trend following" and "daytrading" in the same sentence.

No intraday movement can be considered a true trend.

The morons that taught you that crap did that for giving you the false impression of doing something valuable instead of noise trading.

If you daytrading, you are a noise trader whether you trade patterns or trends, period.

Trend following means days, weeks, months, even years. Please do not insult trend following. A daytrader is a noise trader and nothing else. Any trends you see in intraday data are random, where any trends you see in daily data are due to fundamental factors and momentum, they are the non-random part of the data series. You cannot catch random trends with any non-random indicators. You will be ruined at the end.

There are intraday trends... If you don't believe me go study your intraday charts and you will see it. If the market moves up all day with slight pull backs what do you call that?

The problem is most people only have one strategy to trade the market.. And that's a no no.. If you really want to be successful you have to have different strategies to trade different conditions..
 
Some points:

1 - In whatever timeframe, there's either going to be trend or chop going on. A quick glance at a chart in that timeframe pretty much gives you the lay of the land.
2 - Very long term, it's all chop right now: have a look at the Privateer's monthly Dow chart, which pretty much defines secular. Since 2000 or so, it's all been chop.
3 - Chop in a really long term chart, like the Privateer's, is a very very bearish indication. If you see something like that, prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Sustained high volatility in a long term timeframe is not a good thing at all, and this is about as long term a timeframe as you can get and still stay within an investing lifetime. Unless you're trading with your grandkids in mind, this is as long as it gets.
4 - Getting back to practical timeframes, the way I do it is to have a way of defining a trend and going with it, while at the same time having a very adaptable and fast way of measuring momentum with the idea of catching a breakout to the opposite direction almost (never really simultaneously, but as close as practicable) as soon as it happens, which helps although it doesn't totally solve the problem of chop. Of course, filtering for noise, which is what widening your stops would address, is a reasonable adaptation to making sure you don't get out of a good trend before it's over. I use options rather than stops so that I'm always trading the same system with the same parameters, with the options hedging against sudden moves against me. I could never use stops correctly, partially because my timeframe is more than a day but not by much, so I'm always holding overnight, but trading pretty frequently. Stops just aren't practical for overnight gaps.
 
Lot of misconceptions.

A daytrader does not necessarily have to be one that trades noise or chopping intraday charts.

A daytrader could be scanning daily even weekly or monthly charts searching for technical damage to obtain the necessary momentum to utilize extreme leverage while preserving risk in check the whole time.

Technical damage in a daily or higher chart is rarely a fluke.

Crazy A
 
Quote from trefoil:

I'm amazed anyone posted here intraday. Today was a completely crazy day.
As a case study, what I do is 75-80% trend trading, and today I got an early signal down and was absolutely biting my lip right through at around 2PM. But the trends I follow were all pointing down, so I had to stick with it.
Sweetness from then on.
I think I lost at least a week off my life today though. Sheesh.

If you are confident of your system, don't stress it. Your system should be the opposite of the casino. The longer you play the more likely you are to win.

Takes away stress.
 
Quote from oldtime:

days, weeks, months and years??? You trade that noise crap?? Heck I have positions that were put on by my great great grandfather and have been passed down through the generations. Which reminds me, the bar on my hundred year chart is about finished, time to start a new one. So, what's a chop? It doesn't show up on century charts.

Bang on the money.This is sanity.
 
Quote from Rabbitone:

As Intradaybill noted Trend following is a term that has been around for decades as defined by:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trend_following

So I assume you mean longer term trends. I have position traded and swing traded for years in longer term trends. To keep my head straight I often refer back to these quotes I saved:

Jake Bernstein stated: "It took me over nine years to realize that, although it may be a romantic and ego-satisfying goal, forecasting is not necessarily synonymous with profit. To anticipate trends is a difficult and often haphazard task, and it tends to lead to losses more often than profits."

With this quote I learned you have to start somewhere to trade trends and you have to be prepared to take big drawdowns before you ever get to the meat of a trend where the profits are. For example my methods had a big drawdown in early 2008 until I adjusted. Then the trend profits from 2009 and 2010 made up for the losses big time and are sustaining me through the choppy period we are currently in. You have to learn to trade through the choppy periods to get back to the trends.

Russell Sands was an original member of Richard Dennis' Turtles group and has built a successful career as a money manager and advisor generally using the Turtle methodology. He stated:

"The best approach is to be a long-term trend follower. Trend following is statistically valid in the sense that everybody has tested it for years and years, and it works. "I acknowledge that the market trends maybe 20 percent of the time and chops back and forth in consolidation 80 percent of the time. The trick is how to define where the trend starts and where it stops. If when a market does trend, you get in at the right time, ride that trend and then get out at the right time, you'll make enough money to more than offset the losses you take during non-trending periods.

This quote sums it up what you have to get through to trend trade. You have to prepare your money management to get you through the chop periods so the trend periods can make you money.


Cut the crap!

Dennis was a failure trading for funds.Get your facts right.His original method has not been used since.They sell mentoring and services using the bullsheet of trend trading , and those thousands of books written by failed traders.
 
Quote from intradaybill:

You people stop please using "trend following" and "daytrading" in the same sentence.

No intraday movement can be considered a true trend.

The morons that taught you that crap did that for giving you the false impression of doing something valuable instead of noise trading.

If you daytrading, you are a noise trader whether you trade patterns or trends, period.

Trend following means days, weeks, months, even years. Please do not insult trend following. A daytrader is a noise trader and nothing else. Any trends you see in intraday data are random, where any trends you see in daily data are due to fundamental factors and momentum, they are the non-random part of the data series. You cannot catch random trends with any non-random indicators. You will be ruined at the end.

There are plenty of intra day trends , traders have to use tick ,1 m and 5 min and be a lot quicker and sharper to see them .It requires experience ,knowledge,skill and intuition to separate these intra day trends from noise.It is a combination of chart reading ,inter market analysis and trends , psychology ,instrument knowledge ,sentiment and confluence indications on the chart including longer time frame analysis.This is not something you can learn from books and courses.Show me one book which fully describes everything required .
 
Quote from swag:

Howdy folks,

is there a way for money management to save you from losing as much in chop if you are trend following? For example, sizing up/down (or is that just martingale-esque?). This is assuming your signals can't determine any difference between trending/chop. It would be nice if anyone could share ideas, thanks.

It can save you from losing as much , but such money management systems are not shared or known.They are too complex and controversial to discuss , they also require special discipline to implement.
 
Quote from MarketAddict:

There are intraday trends... If you don't believe me go study your intraday charts and you will see it. If the market moves up all day with slight pull backs what do you call that?

The problem is most people only have one strategy to trade the market.. And that's a no no.. If you really want to be successful you have to have different strategies to trade different conditions..

100% spot on.

Intradaybill- take a look at the 5min chart on GOOG last Friday...

As opposed to an RTM strategy--this was 100% a trend following strategy for the day on the pullbacks.

You need to expand your scope of reasoning.
 
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