if i had 10 cents for every arb I've seen...

The "OTC Stitch" - explained
The reason your OTC "stitch" (.0001 to .0002) doesn't work is because what you are seeing is simply the MM's algo with a Bid at .0001 for anyone who will sell, with the MMs Ask at .0002

This can go on for months, years for some. MMs and accumulators will take all they can get at .0001 (why not?), to go for the "100% score" you're talking about. It's only when the MM can get some under .0001 that they will sell at .0001 (I've been partially filled at .00005, so it does occur, extremely rare). Otherwise, you're looking for a moment when a random seller gets bored and sells, at a moment the MM doesn't need more shares.

You model doesn't work because you need a Bid of .0002 to flip your 0001s, but that's where the MM will usually sell in his 0001s, on light volume. In the micros, you always need a +0001 over your C.B. on the Bid, but the "price" showing is usually the Ask, will always show you a false high gain of +0001, since showing you the Ask as the "price," shows you a "fake profit" which you can't take because it doesn't actually exist, as there's no Bid to give you that gain.
Showing the Ask as the "price" is simply a sales trick the MMs use to get buyers to sell to.

OTCs are usually run by junior brokers at the MM. These guys are called DMMs (designated market makers), they used to be called "Specialists." Each is assigned to oversee a group of (50-70) specific tickers. In OTCs, they are "Semi-Automated DMMs." The DMM will leave the ticker on the automated algorithm you see about 90% of the time (never 100%).

The other 10% of the time, they trade the ticker and fill orders manually. These are the days when you see a particular OTC jump up multiple ticks, usually 3-5 tickers on any given day. They often coordinate with other MMs who work the same stock, the plan which 3-5 tickers will be worked that week, so the spread risk and everyone makes on the rise.

The MM has buys up on light volume to jump the price, then puts in a floor up high to prevent the drop, until he sells off his cheap bottom shares, then takes the floor out and lets it head south again, usually with a large initial drop, then after it falls, he'll put back the "+0001, -0001" stitching Bid / Ask on the descending line, re-engaging the automated algo, which will then keeps stepping down as he flips with the algo back in place.

In OTCs, there are "pure 0001s" and "pure 0002s." Some 1's you can get, some you can never get at 1, only at 2 (pure 0002s). Pure 0002s will always get worked up and down with greater regularity. Pure 0001s often have massive pumps, after long extended flatline periods of 6 months or more. Buying any OTC at 0003 and up is generally "chasing," increased risk, but if positions are small, you can certainly find flips to play.

Hope this helps clarify your issue. Anyone who has any follow-up questions, I'd be happy to answer and go into greater depth, but this is the game. Understand it, it won't be so frustrating.

Happy trades!
 
The "OTC Stitch" - explained
The reason your OTC "stitch" (.0001 to .0002) doesn't work is because what you are seeing is simply the MM's algo with a Bid at .0001 for anyone who will sell, with the MMs Ask at .0002

This can go on for months, years for some. MMs and accumulators will take all they can get at .0001 (why not?), to go for the "100% score" you're talking about. It's only when the MM can get some under .0001 that they will sell at .0001 (I've been partially filled at .00005, so it does occur, extremely rare). Otherwise, you're looking for a moment when a random seller gets bored and sells, at a moment the MM doesn't need more shares.

You model doesn't work because you need a Bid of .0002 to flip your 0001s, but that's where the MM will usually sell in his 0001s, on light volume. In the micros, you always need a +0001 over your C.B. on the Bid, but the "price" showing is usually the Ask, will always show you a false high gain of +0001, since showing you the Ask as the "price," shows you a "fake profit" which you can't take because it doesn't actually exist, as there's no Bid to give you that gain.
Showing the Ask as the "price" is simply a sales trick the MMs use to get buyers to sell to.

OTCs are usually run by junior brokers at the MM. These guys are called DMMs (designated market makers), they used to be called "Specialists." Each is assigned to oversee a group of (50-70) specific tickers. In OTCs, they are "Semi-Automated DMMs." The DMM will leave the ticker on the automated algorithm you see about 90% of the time (never 100%).

The other 10% of the time, they trade the ticker and fill orders manually. These are the days when you see a particular OTC jump up multiple ticks, usually 3-5 tickers on any given day. They often coordinate with other MMs who work the same stock, the plan which 3-5 tickers will be worked that week, so the spread risk and everyone makes on the rise.

The MM has buys up on light volume to jump the price, then puts in a floor up high to prevent the drop, until he sells off his cheap bottom shares, then takes the floor out and lets it head south again, usually with a large initial drop, then after it falls, he'll put back the "+0001, -0001" stitching Bid / Ask on the descending line, re-engaging the automated algo, which will then keeps stepping down as he flips with the algo back in place.

In OTCs, there are "pure 0001s" and "pure 0002s." Some 1's you can get, some you can never get at 1, only at 2 (pure 0002s). Pure 0002s will always get worked up and down with greater regularity. Pure 0001s often have massive pumps, after long extended flatline periods of 6 months or more. Buying any OTC at 0003 and up is generally "chasing," increased risk, but if positions are small, you can certainly find flips to play.

Hope this helps clarify your issue. Anyone who has any follow-up questions, I'd be happy to answer and go into greater depth, but this is the game. Understand it, it won't be so frustrating.

Happy trades!


Very helpful post! Thanks a lot! That really helps to understand the game.

I thought there must be some technical reason why the idea doesn't work but I couldn't figure it out so I tried it with a tiny size.
 
There are several ways to achieve this kind of borrowing yield. One would be to short T-Bills and hedge the interest rate risk...
IB seems to offer that if you borrow at least 5 million.
https://ibkr.info/article/3419
With 1 % margin that would be an extremly cheap way to borrow assuming they do let you use the money and not keep it seperate. In the hedge fund world this financing approach is far from unusual...

How does this work exactly?
 
Nobody is banking with you. And of course I don't post winners. I want the entire trade for myself.
Now can you please go back to random insults, please? A serious discussion with a low life like you doesn't do anything for me and reading youe half baked meme attempts made me chuckle at least...
Just mute the guy like the rest of us.
 
I'd agree with Tony F., since Mr. Muppet seems pretty emotion-based. You see, if I'm making a trade, I want the WHOLE WORLD making the same trade, which does what? Pumps the price, creating an instant winner. The idea of "keeping winners to yourself" means you want lower volume, which does what? Drives the price down. Pure genius...

Trading 101: "Price follows volume."

Happy trades!
 
I'd agree with Tony F., since Mr. Muppet seems pretty emotion-based. You see, if I'm making a trade, I want the WHOLE WORLD making the same trade, which does what? Pumps the price, creating an instant winner. The idea of "keeping winners to yourself" means you want lower volume, which does what? Drives the price down. Pure genius...

Trading 101: "Price follows volume."

Happy trades!

That's great to hear, another happy customer.

You know, if I'm making a trade I probably buy a convertible of a microcap for 20cts under fair value and short some calls.

And I want all of it...the entire trade or as much as I can scoop up...because I already have an instant winner.

Now a couple of weeks later the stock is in the news, the (not emotion-based) breakout customers are chiming in and the WHOLE WORLD is making the same trade, which does what?
Pumps the price into my short call strikes and they get exercised for the whole lot.
I exercise my convertibles to cover the shorts.

The idea of "keeping winners to yourself" means you want more volume after you executed the trade, which does what? Allows you to dump your position.


You might ask, how does this guy get a convertible bond at 20cts under fair value?
That is pure genius ;)
 
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That's great to hear, another happy customer.

You know, if I'm making a trade I probably buy a convertible of a microcap for 20cts under fair value and short some calls.

And I want all of it...the entire trade or as much as I can scoop up...because I already have an instant winner.

Now a couple of weeks later the stock is in the news, the (not emotion-based) breakout customers are chiming in and the WHOLE WORLD is making the same trade, which does what?
Pumps the price into my short call strikes and they get exercised for the whole lot.
I exercise my convertibles to cover the shorts.

The idea of "keeping winners to yourself" means you want more volume after you executed the trade, which does what? Allows you to dump your position.


You might ask, how does this guy get a convertible bond at 20cts under fair value?
That is pure genius ;)
 
You're not buying OTCs for 20 cts under value, they're under 20cts to start with.

You're not shorting anything under 1.00, which eliminates any and all OTCs from your entire scenario. You can't short OTCs under 1.00, which was the subject of this conversation, in case you were paying attention.

If you actually were doing what you described, you'd be making enough to not be so angry in your statements, which means you're not. Someone who was doing well and was happy about it would have the heart of a teacher, not a complainer. You're dripping with anger, not good with people, desperate to be right, which tells me it probably doesn't happen much.

Happy trades!
 
You're not buying OTCs for 20 cts under value, they're under 20cts to start with.

You're not shorting anything under 1.00, which eliminates any and all OTCs from your entire scenario. You can't short OTCs under 1.00, which was the subject of this conversation, in case you were paying attention.

If you actually were doing what you described, you'd be making enough to not be so angry in your statements, which means you're not. Someone who was doing well and was happy about it would have the heart of a teacher, not a complainer. You're dripping with anger, not good with people, desperate to be right, which tells me it probably doesn't happen much.

Happy trades!
well, who said anything about OTCs?
If you actually cared to read what I'm writing you would actually learn something instead of white knighting for the losers.

Happy trades :)
 
You're not buying OTCs for 20 cts under value, they're under 20cts to start with.

You're not shorting anything under 1.00, which eliminates any and all OTCs from your entire scenario. You can't short OTCs under 1.00, which was the subject of this conversation, in case you were paying attention.

If you actually were doing what you described, you'd be making enough to not be so angry in your statements, which means you're not. Someone who was doing well and was happy about it would have the heart of a teacher, not a complainer. You're dripping with anger, not good with people, desperate to be right, which tells me it probably doesn't happen much.

Happy trades!

Dude, many people do capital structure arb trades of this sort. It is a well known strategy.

Edit: I am talking about market caps greater than $500m of course.
 
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