if i had 10 cents for every arb I've seen...

Excellent post.

Ok, first of all just discard anything posted by @JackMorgan
The guy has no clue and all he does is brag and shitpost. He couldn't execute an arb even if you wrote him a detailed manual. If he had 10cents for every arb he's seen that he was to dump to exploit he'd probably have 1$.

Second, arbing ADRs definitely works. I've done it myself and I know a trading house that makes markets for small cap ADRs in the away market and cover in home markets.

However (!), the stuff you are talking about is 90% infrastructure business and taking on second order risks.
Let's say you make a market in a secondary listing on NASDAQ Nordic, the home market is Indonesia. Your offer is filled at edge but you need to carry over your position while your secondary market is already closed and the prime market has not yet opened. Does your broker allow you to do that? Probably not....so you need to get a clearing house that allows you to carry over naked shorts into t+1 settlement so you can cover your position in the primary market.
In addition you have FX risk plus the risk that the primary market opens higher and your edge is gone.

Also if you do that you will need direct access to the respective exchanges. Doing that with SMART routing is impossible since you don't know where the order is going to go. And the last thing you want is your order going into a designated market makers auction book because he's your competition and he will fill you whenever he wants.
You don't get your order executed at 0.0002 because you do not have access to the execution venues where the volume is. HCMC is traded OTC meaning it does not have a centralized orderbook but is traded through OTC MMs order books, dark pools and multilateral trading facilities (MTFs). If you don't have access to these, your order is what everyone is leaning on.


I said it again and again. Do not use IB for this kind of stuff. IB has infrastructure for CTAs and wealth managers with all that compliance and reporting shenanigans.
IBs tech and execution capabilities are absolutely terrible and you're also limited because of it's automated risk management system that shuts down everything that deviates from anything that retail or money managers are doing.

To contribute to your actual thread:

Arb 101:

There are two different types of arbs:
1. Direct arb: Equal products, fungible, trades on different venues, e.g.. secondary listings
2. Risk arbs: Similar products, similar cashflow but not equal. Risk is relocated to second order, e.g. M&A, convertible bonds, derivatives


Direct arbs exist due to tech and infrastructure, capital restricitons, trade financing and regulation. This is doable for retail but there are absolutely no resources online. Key is settlement, venue access and interest paid on leverage.


Risk arbs are where the juice is. They exist because there is a risk premium paid on second or third order risks and your job is to evaluate if it's worth to carry that risk. This is absolutely doable for retail and infrastructure requirements are low compared to direct arbs. But you need to be able to evaluate the opportunity correctly.
A recent example would have been Elons Twitter buyout. If I remember correctly, TWTR traded just a couple of bucks below indicated takeover price (which is the risk premium in an M&A trade, because if you bet on the deal to happen, that's what you get for taking the risk that the deal goes bust)
However, a put spread could have been purchased for a pretty low debit to bet on the deal not going to happen and the risk/reward was insane on that one.

Kind of a hybrid example are currency NDFs that exist because the respective countries have capital controls in place that block or limit money from going in and out of the country. Bigger players cannot trade this kind of stuff, because....well, capital controls, so there is some food for the shrimp.
The issues are market access as well as the risk premium for settlement and legal issues.

Thai Baht NDFs pre 2008 come to mind and the most recent opportunities were Bitcoin during the HK protest era as well as the kimchi premium for crypto in general. Capital controls cannot apply to crypto in general so you could move the money and you needed to hedge your trade with derivatives to turn your KRW or Yuan into USD without an actual conversion.


Conclusion:
When you see an arb, it is most likely doable, the question is how. The next question is why it exists and if you find a way around those restrictions. If you're smart about it, you will find opportunity every day but not in the news or the internet. If you do stuff like this, you're on your own
 
Not necessarily. You need a niche that you can exploit for more than your costs are for doing it.

If you can get a comsumer loan for 2% which you convert into ETH, stake that for a 4% yield and hedge the position with a futures contract at a 2% premium, you don't need a prop shop for doing so.
It is a risk arb depending on how you setup your business and where you hold your positions and it's your job to evaluate if the 4% you make from that position covers the counterparty risks

No doubt there arb opportunities galore in the crypto space.
You could even make tons of money oper the course of years and still loose it to some 17 year old who hacked the exchange or your wallet.
There many kinds of risks I can take in order to make money - trading this unregulated market is not one of them.
Last time I researched this there were crypto futures trading on regulated exchanges in London and Chicago but the cost of carry was negligible...
 
No doubt there arb opportunities galore in the crypto space.
You could even make tons of money oper the course of years and still loose it to some 17 year old who hacked the exchange or your wallet.
There many kinds of risks I can take in order to make money - trading this unregulated market is not one of them.
Last time I researched this there were crypto futures trading on regulated exchanges in London and Chicago but the cost of carry was negligible...

the hacking is the ultimate arb. It requires (the lack of) infrastructure and jurisdiction!
 
Ok, first of all just discard anything posted by @JackMorgan
The guy has no clue and all he does is brag and shitpost. He couldn't execute an arb even if you wrote him a detailed manual. If he had 10cents for every arb he's seen that he was to dump to exploit he'd probably have 1$.

Second, arbing ADRs definitely works. I've done it myself and I know a trading house that makes markets for small cap ADRs in the away market and cover in home markets.

However (!), the stuff you are talking about is 90% infrastructure business and taking on second order risks.
Let's say you make a market in a secondary listing on NASDAQ Nordic, the home market is Indonesia. Your offer is filled at edge but you need to carry over your position while your secondary market is already closed and the prime market has not yet opened. Does your broker allow you to do that? Probably not....so you need to get a clearing house that allows you to carry over naked shorts into t+1 settlement so you can cover your position in the primary market.
In addition you have FX risk plus the risk that the primary market opens higher and your edge is gone.

Also if you do that you will need direct access to the respective exchanges. Doing that with SMART routing is impossible since you don't know where the order is going to go. And the last thing you want is your order going into a designated market makers auction book because he's your competition and he will fill you whenever he wants.
You don't get your order executed at 0.0002 because you do not have access to the execution venues where the volume is. HCMC is traded OTC meaning it does not have a centralized orderbook but is traded through OTC MMs order books, dark pools and multilateral trading facilities (MTFs). If you don't have access to these, your order is what everyone is leaning on.


I said it again and again. Do not use IB for this kind of stuff. IB has infrastructure for CTAs and wealth managers with all that compliance and reporting shenanigans.
IBs tech and execution capabilities are absolutely terrible and you're also limited because of it's automated risk management system that shuts down everything that deviates from anything that retail or money managers are doing.

To contribute to your actual thread:

Arb 101:

There are two different types of arbs:
1. Direct arb: Equal products, fungible, trades on different venues, e.g.. secondary listings
2. Risk arbs: Similar products, similar cashflow but not equal. Risk is relocated to second order, e.g. M&A, convertible bonds, derivatives


Direct arbs exist due to tech and infrastructure, capital restricitons, trade financing and regulation. This is doable for retail but there are absolutely no resources online. Key is settlement, venue access and interest paid on leverage.


Risk arbs are where the juice is. They exist because there is a risk premium paid on second or third order risks and your job is to evaluate if it's worth to carry that risk. This is absolutely doable for retail and infrastructure requirements are low compared to direct arbs. But you need to be able to evaluate the opportunity correctly.
A recent example would have been Elons Twitter buyout. If I remember correctly, TWTR traded just a couple of bucks below indicated takeover price (which is the risk premium in an M&A trade, because if you bet on the deal to happen, that's what you get for taking the risk that the deal goes bust)
However, a put spread could have been purchased for a pretty low debit to bet on the deal not going to happen and the risk/reward was insane on that one.

Kind of a hybrid example are currency NDFs that exist because the respective countries have capital controls in place that block or limit money from going in and out of the country. Bigger players cannot trade this kind of stuff, because....well, capital controls, so there is some food for the shrimp.
The issues are market access as well as the risk premium for settlement and legal issues.

Thai Baht NDFs pre 2008 come to mind and the most recent opportunities were Bitcoin during the HK protest era as well as the kimchi premium for crypto in general. Capital controls cannot apply to crypto in general so you could move the money and you needed to hedge your trade with derivatives to turn your KRW or Yuan into USD without an actual conversion.


Conclusion:
When you see an arb, it is most likely doable, the question is how. The next question is why it exists and if you find a way around those restrictions. If you're smart about it, you will find opportunity every day but not in the news or the internet. If you do stuff like this, you're on your own


I agree. It seems like for futures you can get a great broker even in the retail world. That broker will use a decent risk management system that doesn't cause you any troubles.
Regarding stocks, options and international markets I haven't found a broker that beats IB yet.
The ones I found will only talk to you if you a bring a couple of millions to the table...
Maybe you have different experiences in that context?

You mention fx arb. Let's take this example: See the screenshot attached. Cross currency basis swaps in KRW yield 1% over a year. They can be replicated with exchange traded derivatives. That's the same example trade as you mentioned with crypto. Borrow in USD and invest in higher yielding instrument. While it is possible for prop firms and banks to set sth up in korea retailers with IB are not allowed to trade KRW. With leverage this could easily be a highly profitable trade with a hedged fx risk and a hedged credit risk.
 

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Be careful staking crypto. Higher rates are higher for a reason. Someone has to PAY that yield to YOU. Now, why? It's possible only during times of bubble where sentiment is in greed mode for quite some time. But if you can figure that out, then why bother with those (low) yields if you can just buy the (rocketing) underlying?
because instead of buying something for 100k that might 10x or not I'd much rather borrow 100m for 3% floating and put it into a hedged carry trade that yields 10% fixed p.a.
When it crashes, borrowing rates go down and I increase my profit and when it pumps I can hedge my DV01 with futures spreads.

I want to provide liquidity for the monkeys that bet on price and need leverage for that.
 
I agree. It seems like for futures you can get a great broker even in the retail world. That broker will use a decent risk management system that doesn't cause you any troubles.
Regarding stocks, options and international markets I haven't found a broker that beats IB yet.
The ones I found will only talk to you if you a bring a couple of millions to the table...
Maybe you have different experiences in that context?

You mention fx arb. Let's take this example: See the screenshot attached. Cross currency basis swaps in KRW yield 1% over a year. They can be replicated with exchange traded derivatives. That's the same example trade as you mentioned with crypto. Borrow in USD and invest in higher yielding instrument. While it is possible for prop firms and banks to set sth up in korea retailers with IB are not allowed to trade KRW. With leverage this could easily be a highly profitable trade with a hedged fx risk and a hedged credit risk.

The reason why IB doesn't allow you to trade KRW is because Korea has capital restrictions on their currency and nobody outside Korea can settle KRW. If you figure out how to structure a synthetic KRW to trade it against an NDF that yields 1% you're in the money ;)

On the other hand you could have a look at the EURUSD forward curve vs the EURUSD volatility surface. Right now it's probably the biggest risk arb you can put on in terms of size IF you know how to structure a position and manage your inventory
 
Forget that kind of FX arb I would suggest. You can either do arb via Futures, looking for deviations on intras e.g., every better futures broker allow you to get exchange and span margins here. Then you can build up something pretty fast with the low margins you need. Or if you really want swap arb on FX, I would look on different brokers on their swaps for different currencies on their long and short side and take an arbitrage opportunity among different brokers there. You can achieve here about 5% per month with no directional risk, you only need to transfer some money from one account to another account from time to time because of the underlying volatility. There are plenty of opportunities where there are such huge swap differences among FX brokers in the same FX pair that you can profit from them even when you choose among only the more reputable brokers. Last, if you really want that kind FX arb you mentioned do not forget you do not overleverage. Anything higher leverage than 5 is too much here. There are longterm studies, that all is already examined what are you looking for.
 
Which years are you referring to? Swap rate arb among brokers does not exist for a long time anymore. I exclude all shady brokerages or bucketshops which might offer anything to attract naive individuals.

Forget that kind of FX arb I would suggest. You can either do arb via Futures, looking for deviations on intras e.g., every better futures broker allow you to get exchange and span margins here. Then you can build up something pretty fast with the low margins you need. Or if you really want swap arb on FX, I would look on different brokers on their swaps for different currencies on their long and short side and take an arbitrage opportunity among different brokers there. You can achieve here about 5% per month with no directional risk, you only need to transfer some money from one account to another account from time to time because of the underlying volatility. There are plenty of opportunities where there are such huge swap differences among FX brokers in the same FX pair that you can profit from them even when you choose among only the more reputable brokers. Last, if you really want that kind FX arb you mentioned do not forget you do not overleverage. Anything higher leverage than 5 is too much here. There are longterm studies, that all is already examined what are you looking for.
 
Which years are you referring to? Swap rate arb among brokers does not exist for a long time anymore. I exclude all shady brokerages or bucketshops which might offer anything to attract naive individuals.
I do not want to be too specific. But there are still opportunities, just do your own search.
 
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