I was just commenting on the fact that his Scottrade account would not let him trade options in IRA which I think is incredibly short sighted on the part of brokers since options do give a person a way to hedge and protect their IRA....PDT rule not a big factor in most option IRA accounts since its very difficult to daytrade options profitably
icemans' IRA trading Journal
- Thread starter iceman1
- Start date
I was just commenting on the fact that his Scottrade account would not let him trade options in IRA which I think is incredibly short sighted on the part of brokers since options do give a person a way to hedge and protect their IRA....PDT rule not a big factor in most option IRA accounts since its very difficult to daytrade options profitably
Donna,
Sorry if I misunderstood. You are right about short sightedness of some brokers. But unfortunately most are. Personally I am ambivalent about all these rules, but maybe there are there for a reason, as most people don't know what they are doing and some of them will turn around and blame and sue their brokers for breaching their fiduciary duty if they lose money. Perhaps a more reasonable approach is to allow people to opt out of IRA trading restrictions and PDT rules, thus putting the choice back into trader's hands.
Opra
Quote from iceman1:
I guess if you live long enough in this Country - you see everything!
I was now informed by my new broker that I became subject to the PDT rule today (and not knowing that this b.s. rule applied to retirement accounts) went ahead and apparently made 3 trades in GOOG; my account is now locked up until next Wednesday. Unreal !
Apparently if you elect to have an IRA treated as a margin account you then allegedly become subject to the unconstitutional PDT rule that all the sheep have been allowing to remain in place by the scumbags at the NASD, NYSE and SEC who passed or were involved in the passage of this onerous and unnecessary law.
Between that B.S. law and the so-called (anti) Patriot Act this Country- the USA-- has sunk to all time lows in terms of lack of class, dignity and ethics in how it treats it citizenry. I think right now we need to exhume Niccolo Michavelli and elect him as our next President since this country has lost it's mind with all it's securities red tape, overbearing regulations and unconstitutional laws. It is simply amazing how no one has stood up and challenged this absurd PDT rule which is totally arbitrary. Why is it 25K why not 27K or 30K or 20K. Why 3 trades within 5 days - why not 4 or 6? It's insane!
We have the most immoral and unethical scumbags from Wall Street (judging by all the crap we have witnessed in the 80s/90s) deciding how honorable people can invest and trade their own fricking accounts! These maggots felt the need to enact unconstitutional Rules that are totally against public policy -- like the Pattern Day Trading -- to keep the whip on the citizenry who want to trade in their accounts as often as they choose and as they see fit. I mean, we have enough fricking DISCLOSURES and DISCLAIMERS already. We don't need any more ARBITRARY parent patriae laws on the books treating grown adults as if they were ignorant all for the benefit of the large institutions.
Who the f-k needs these jerks at he NYSE and SEC and NASD deciding how often one should trade in their own account with their own funds without so much as even asking or knowing the background, age and experience of the person involved.
Further-- in my opinion ERISA and other related laws govern these retirement accounts - and I doubt if there were amendments to ERISA allowing for PDT to apply.
I have have just now contacted Northwestern School of Law where I attended, and will seek the assistance of their student investor legal clinic in bringing a class action lawsuit to overturn the PDT, and all other current regulatory Rules that were passed post-2000.
This is the final straw!
I will serve as plaintiff!!
Ice
PDT lockdown - DAY 2
well-- my broker for this account has the prison locked down for the 2nd day --- so I was unable to fill my order buying more March SOX 510 puts near today's lows. Of course they closed the day up 1.70-1.90
I am still long 4 SOX March 510 Puts @ 480 bought on the day the PDT "rule" defined me as a DAY TRADER since I made --- OH --- MY --- GOD!
three day trades (in the past year- but they all happend to be within that magical 5 day period)
Wow - now that calls for some heavy penalty like locking down the account so the owner of the account cannot trade/invest. Never mind if the lockdown occurs during one of the most opportune days or weeks or months in market history.
A rule is a rule.
Well - I believe Thoreau had it right when he wrote Civil Disobedience and not the scumbags at the NYSE, NASD and SEC.
"The government is best which governs LEAST!"
AND --- after all --- none of us would even be here enjoying all this freedom if not for some very stubborn patriots who refused to bow down to tyranny. The PDT rule and other related rules are tyranny.
So get this, the morons who run these agencies and upon whom we count to make these laws and rules and regs governing us intelligent folk -- reasonably fair and just-- are telling the brokers (who have no choice but to honor these Rules) that I can't even buy calls on SOX today IF I had wanted to hedge my short. I only had the choice of exiting the SOX puts perhaps at a lost. Because once your are locked down per the PDT rule - you can only close positions. We can not add on or average/scale in to more as was my plan - or do anything to protect my trade/investment. Even if you promise to not make another day trade until we land on Mars AND put it in writing !
So that makes me wonder- for whose benefit was this inane and unjust rule passed in the first place. It sure isn't helping to protect me against myself and I.
I am in the process of adding to my file on the PDT and related 2001 rules - and drafting a persuasive letter to send to all agencies involved and the SIA.
Ice
2-10-06
SOX
sold my SOX 510 puts today for 6.20
+ 4 510p @ 4.80
- 4 510p @6.20
PnL = 560
had I been able to re-enter I would have gotten back in immediately once I saw SOX continue to slide. But I could not due to the damn PDT rule!
This is criminal that experienced and very smart adults are treated like this by the charlatan low-intellects who run the SEC and NASD etc. !
--- but for the PDT rule --- that required the broker to lock my account like in prison- I would have been able to execute my plan to add 4 more SOX 510 puts yesterday at the lows as I posted heretofore. This PDT lockdown cost me $1000 today.
Now that I closed these I cannot add SOX calls or puts until next Wednesday!! :eek:
This event will be the impetus to keep me motivated to get this scam PDT rule ---- abrogated once and for all!
The sad thing is this account WILL be over 25000 this quarter-- AND had I known the g-damn PDT rule applied to IRAs I would have not gotten out of my GOOG puts that other day-- and would now probably already be at 25000 from other opportunities missed.
I am g-damn mad about this insanity !
SOX
sold my SOX 510 puts today for 6.20
+ 4 510p @ 4.80
- 4 510p @6.20
PnL = 560
had I been able to re-enter I would have gotten back in immediately once I saw SOX continue to slide. But I could not due to the damn PDT rule!
This is criminal that experienced and very smart adults are treated like this by the charlatan low-intellects who run the SEC and NASD etc. !
--- but for the PDT rule --- that required the broker to lock my account like in prison- I would have been able to execute my plan to add 4 more SOX 510 puts yesterday at the lows as I posted heretofore. This PDT lockdown cost me $1000 today.
Now that I closed these I cannot add SOX calls or puts until next Wednesday!! :eek:
This event will be the impetus to keep me motivated to get this scam PDT rule ---- abrogated once and for all!
The sad thing is this account WILL be over 25000 this quarter-- AND had I known the g-damn PDT rule applied to IRAs I would have not gotten out of my GOOG puts that other day-- and would now probably already be at 25000 from other opportunities missed.
I am g-damn mad about this insanity !
PDT lockdown - Day 4
well under the absurd and inexplicable PDT "law" my account will remain locked down until Wednesday morning, February 12, 2006. This has cost me approximately >3,000 is missed profits in OIH and SOX, and on Monday it will cost me more lost profits when DNA calls rise as I expect since I could NOT add on last week as per my plan.
It also prohibited me from entering APOL calls. What a joke!!
Remember this rule is supposed to help people. But as with most insane law passed in the USA it makes no provision for allowing "exceptions to the rule" for those more skilled in 'day" and options trading.
The ironic part of this inane enactment is that when this account is > 25000 -- which it will be soon -- suddenly and miraculously I will be free to make as many alleged reckless "day trades" as I choose. Suddenly ---- I will elevated into a whole different class of trader. This PDT rule will NOW allow me to trade as many times aas I want, and (with some IRAs at certain brokers being allowed to operate as quasi-margin accounts) to blow my entire wad within a week. But nevermind that -------- at least I will NOT be doing the criminal "THREE day trades within a 5 day period" GIG with an account size <$25000.
WOW...
... and to think some quasi-government mind actually conjured up this inequitable and delusional rule, and the people allowed it to exist more than 4 years... !
well under the absurd and inexplicable PDT "law" my account will remain locked down until Wednesday morning, February 12, 2006. This has cost me approximately >3,000 is missed profits in OIH and SOX, and on Monday it will cost me more lost profits when DNA calls rise as I expect since I could NOT add on last week as per my plan.
It also prohibited me from entering APOL calls. What a joke!!
Remember this rule is supposed to help people. But as with most insane law passed in the USA it makes no provision for allowing "exceptions to the rule" for those more skilled in 'day" and options trading.
The ironic part of this inane enactment is that when this account is > 25000 -- which it will be soon -- suddenly and miraculously I will be free to make as many alleged reckless "day trades" as I choose. Suddenly ---- I will elevated into a whole different class of trader. This PDT rule will NOW allow me to trade as many times aas I want, and (with some IRAs at certain brokers being allowed to operate as quasi-margin accounts) to blow my entire wad within a week. But nevermind that -------- at least I will NOT be doing the criminal "THREE day trades within a 5 day period" GIG with an account size <$25000.
WOW...
... and to think some quasi-government mind actually conjured up this inequitable and delusional rule, and the people allowed it to exist more than 4 years... !
PDT lockdown day 5
Well - tomorrow the account will be available for trading. I am so outraged by this PDT fiasco that I cannot wait to begin this crusade to abrogate this hypocrisy.
My goal in this account, and in opening the Journal was to actively trade it all year, and have >75000 at the end of 2006! This 5 day lockdown came at a bad time since the markets in stocks and indexes I follow and trade were active and would have resulted in good profit! I was long SOX puts and exited them the day I got locked down with the absolute intent to re-enter the next day. Same with the OIH index which I have never lost but once trading in this account.
All we hear about is LESS government and yet the morons continue to enact more and more b.s . laws and rules for us to deal with.
In the USA we have MILLIONs of lawyers and millions of laws to enforce TEN (simple) Commandments!
Sad!
Well - tomorrow the account will be available for trading. I am so outraged by this PDT fiasco that I cannot wait to begin this crusade to abrogate this hypocrisy.
My goal in this account, and in opening the Journal was to actively trade it all year, and have >75000 at the end of 2006! This 5 day lockdown came at a bad time since the markets in stocks and indexes I follow and trade were active and would have resulted in good profit! I was long SOX puts and exited them the day I got locked down with the absolute intent to re-enter the next day. Same with the OIH index which I have never lost but once trading in this account.
All we hear about is LESS government and yet the morons continue to enact more and more b.s . laws and rules for us to deal with.
In the USA we have MILLIONs of lawyers and millions of laws to enforce TEN (simple) Commandments!
Sad!
2 15 06
PDT lockdown lifted
DAMN that was upsetting - but getting the PDT abrogated wil be that much sweeter albeit it may take lots of time, and a lawsuit!
Now let's first get the account over 25000 -- on our way to $75000 min. by year-end!
new positions:
+ 4 OIH CF
@ 9.75
oil index March 130 calls
GTC order buying 4 more @ 8.90
bullish premise: open gap - - will look for OIH to trade back to >140
risk: Feb expiry pin <@135
+ 1 QM 59.35
+ 1 GOOG March 340c @ 18.90
will look for GOOG to see >355-360 soon
open orders:
buying DNA March 85c @ 1.30
buying 10 GOOG March 400c @ 200-220
overnight positions:
7 DNA March 85c @ 2.75
PDT lockdown lifted
DAMN that was upsetting - but getting the PDT abrogated wil be that much sweeter albeit it may take lots of time, and a lawsuit!
Now let's first get the account over 25000 -- on our way to $75000 min. by year-end!
new positions:
+ 4 OIH CF
@ 9.75
oil index March 130 calls
GTC order buying 4 more @ 8.90
bullish premise: open gap - - will look for OIH to trade back to >140
risk: Feb expiry pin <@135
+ 1 QM 59.35
+ 1 GOOG March 340c @ 18.90
will look for GOOG to see >355-360 soon
open orders:
buying DNA March 85c @ 1.30
buying 10 GOOG March 400c @ 200-220
overnight positions:
7 DNA March 85c @ 2.75